@TheMadPirate@coolboymew If only you knew how far back the issue actually went, that it actually was starting even in the 90s with Japanese computer games and European computer games, moreso when their respective local platforms died off. Eventually in the end they would just make games for consoles only for a long period of time for two reasons, higher install base and the hardware was more powerful.
Don't laugh at the second one, it was a very real issue where developers had to pick between making a technologically advanced game and selling less (and then risking more piracy because the guy with the nice computer knows how to pirate), or a game for a low specced computer (Amiga 500, PC-9801VM/VX, MSX2, etc.) that isn't as impressive but has a wide install base. In fact, also at the time you mentioned there was a very real "piracy scare" with computer games and a lot of developers announced they were no longer making exclusives due to piracy. tower of power.jpg
@Pawlicker@coolboymew The main problem with the Video game industry started around the Mass Effect/Dragon Age era, in which studios started trying to develop the same game for both PC and consoles at the same time. Problem ? Since the specs of even run-of-the-mill gaming PC outpace most consoles by far, taking a game for PC and downgrading it so it could run on a console was a nightmare ( believe me a was a QA on The Sims 3 during the pre-alpha stage, I have seen that first hand ). So what was those studios solution to such problem ? Invert the developing direction, so they started developing for consoles first and only then "upgrading" the game for PC. That's why from the Mass Effect 2/Dragon Age 2 era onward we have seen a contentious "consolization" of games, smaller world maps, segmentation, heavy loading screens, low quality graphics, excessive cinematics, dumbing down of controls, save points gallore, no save-everywhere functionality, etc. That has made the studios lazy, because they realized the normie drones would still buy their shit even it if has been downgrade to fit the specs of a 5 years old console. They realized they do not have to care anymore, that they can get away with it.
@TheMadPirate@coolboymew I'm not solely talking about PCs here. I'm talking about "home computers" and other proprietary computers. The same exact logic applied to writing games for these, except you'd have to add a speed limiter because there was also a chance that someone would be running their games on a CPU accelerator.
And a massive problem with home computers is that due to price wars and stagnation, the hardware never exactly got better. Or when it did, game developers only targeted the base model hardware because they knew that any computer could run it. So there were multiple computers that had more advanced hardware that was literally wasted because everyone was targeting the piece of shit base model that anyone had. If they targeted a faster machine, there was a chance little Timmy couldn't play it on Christmas.
Or they could target a console with faster hardware and consistent hardware and even if it was weaker, it would actually sell more.
@Pawlicker@coolboymew In the old days, when consoles were not watered-down PCs ( up to the PS2/XBOX 360 era ), the studios had to crunch every bit to make their games run on a console, they had to know the hardware well inside-out , so the game would still run. Of course, since the gap with PCs were so big, they couldn't just get a PC game and "adapt" it to run a console, they had to basically start from scratch and make a new game that runs on that console. That made both parties happy, because most of the times the console guys got exclusive games and the PC guys do no had to worry about having their favorite games watered down to fit lesser specs.
@Pawlicker@coolboymew It's not a theory. I should go and track down a post from an EA dev in the Dragon Age official forums basically admitting all that; that they purposefully downgraded DA2 ( compared to DA1) so they could release the game for consoles faster.
But look at it this way. The same thing was happening in Japan in the 90s. Computer game developers all pivoted into being console devs, and the same went with European computer game devs in that time period too, at least with the bigger name ones. Japanese game developers would even censor NSFW visual novels for consoles to sell more and this strategy paid dividends.
@TheMadPirate@coolboymew I will give Sony credit this though: they are very fucking clever at masking certain things or have enough shills willing to defend them.
Case in point: Microsoft and Sony had vastly different approaches in 2013 to the reality that people were using game consoles as multimedia centers ever since the rise of XBMC and later Netflix on every single game console on earth (even the PS2 at one time) and YT players everywhere and then some.
Microsoft's approach was to go all in on making the Xbox both a game console, but with a "media" focus. The One in Xbox One meant that it would be the One media center for your TV watching, video games, and whatnot. This might have been panned far less if it weren't for Microsoft also trying to pander to publishers with a restrictive confusing used game policy that was never even elaborated before it was rolled back (see: "online passes" in late 360 games to combat pirates and GameStop that died out right as Microsoft announced the restrictions).
But the Xbox first party publishers were about making games first. This sounds crazy, but look at what Sony did. Sony was laxer on the used game question but their first party games were all "game developers trying to make games cinematic" down to the PS3 era. Look at TLOU1 for example, the video of the PS3 extended E3 2012 demo wowed the fuck out of people.
In hindsight, it was another typical E3 demo of the era; a potemkin village in software or a high budget demoscene production that as say the Halo 2 E3 devs would later say in their own words was impossible to ship. Then Watch Dogs happened and the downgrade was so shocking and so severe that game developers now just show shitty trailers with nothing to do with the game so they can't have that happening or screwups like games crashing or the controls not working. But TLOU was exactly what normies wanted, a very technically impressive game on paper that felt just like a movie, because to the average normie "just like my heckin movies" is the top benchmark or was seen that way by Sony. Just read the comments on the video I linked as an example. Now we know it's fake, now we know about the fake shit culture at E3, now we know that other games look better now, but in 2012-13 it was impressive.
Let's get back to Sony. Sony's mindset towards the end of the PS3 era and the PS4/5 era in general is that Sony wanted AAA cinematic games. Uncharted and the like were great examples of this, along with how normies saw even games like CoD (video related). There was a creative shift from fantasy, toony games where "looks like a Pixar movie" was the benchmark (the guys at Microsoft claimed this and a Sony PS2 press release said that the chipset would provide graphics as good as CGI movies) towards "bro real graphics like movies". Their whole mindset was to make gaming feel like you're playing a movie instead of using the PS4 as a multimedia center, and needless to say normies ate it up more. yt5s.com-Soulja boy plays MW3!!!-(480p).mp4
@why yes/no. That means less failure points. However shit will still be expensive once the PS5 ends, and it's basically going to lead more retards to go digital only, on a fucking console
@coolboymew disc drive separate is interesting. you can find ps5 digitals for pretty cheap used, could be a great option. + i wish i could have that option for xbox series s, hopefully ms follows
@coolboymew > and the disc drive comes separately, :OMEGALUL: >so digital by defauly "You will own nothing and you will be happy" why do people still buy their stuff again ?
@Pawlicker@coolboymew I tend to side with Gabe Newell on the piracy thing. You know, that piracy is a Service Issue, not a Content Issue. And I think Gabe proved that extensively, but that's the problem with publishers, they do not want clients to which they have to provide Customer Service, they coomsumers that just get excited for a shiny thing, consume and then get excited for the next shiny thing.That's why so many game studios just looooove Epic Games Store poaching of crowdfunded games. They do not want to fix the piracy issue, as Valve ALMOST did, because that requires for them to do a 180 on their whole relationship with Gamers.
@TheMadPirate@coolboymew no publisher has the balls or money to make a game PC only in 2023 unless it's a one man indie dev who can't make a game on console anyway.
@Pawlicker@coolboymew Very, very True. I think the first ones complaining about a publisher doing a AAA PC only game would be the GameJournoPros ( another cancer in the Video Game Industry ). I can't picture them claiming that a Publisher doing that would be "pandering to the white straight males" or some idiotic nonsense like that.
@Pawlicker@coolboymew Which exactly why so many studios bend the knee to publishers like Sony and Microsoft that make their consoles the priority platform. More so when they are the ones funding the studio, which means "you better downgrade that E3 demos so it can run on our console or you won't see a dime again from us". I think that's also why so many Sony exclusives are only released in PC after a decade or so, because if they released 2 or 3 years after the console version they would look like shit. Of course, you see the opposite reaction when the game is developed for PC first and then downgraded for consoles like it was the case for Cyberpunk 2077. Who were the one crying foul ? the console gamers for which the game pale in comparison the the PC version.
@TheMadPirate@coolboymew Well see, Steam only became acceptable for gamers when Valve launched a bunch of carrots to get people over. Back in 2005 people complained you couldn't phone activate Steam games like you could Windows and that was a big deal for many people. But Valve did cleverly get a lot of people who did not care about PC gaming into it. image.png
@Pawlicker If Steam had not have weekly sales it would sink like a rock. Although I admit, unlike @coolboymew I haven't had the chance to test Steam Deck.
@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@caekislove I legit can't even see them doing PC games first now. The AAA games landscape is such a shitshow, imagine without being too limited by systems, these companies would melt
@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@coolboymew No matter what I say you're just gonna define "big budget" and/or "high profile" however you like to "prove me wrong". 🙄
Basically anything that requires mouse/keyboard input. There's a billion examples on Steam.
@caekislove@TheMadPirate@coolboymew That's the issue, the problem is the PC gaming landscape isn't like it was 15-20 years ago when companies like EA would be willing to make AAA games for the PC first, and console second.
But putting aside the fact that games had nice graphics or unique gameplay using the CPU power of the time, let's look at something more important: the fact that PC games now lack features standard 15 years ago. Mods? Dedi servers? Server lists? Higher player counts? Nah, but the developers saw mouse control and text chat as PC exclusive features, and even an Xbox can support those now.
@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@coolboymew Um, Steam is filled with games that are PC only. Unless you define "indie dev" as "any publisher not owned by Sony or Microsoft", this is just objectively wrong.
@coolboymew@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate >AAA They can't even make their huge budgets back unless Sony or MS pays them extra for console exclusivity. Even then, it's only timed exclusivity because they're gonna want those sweet Steam residuals.
@caekislove@TheMadPirate@coolboymew Nothing on the Xbox because Microsoft puts literally all their games on the PC too. On the Sony, some trashy wannabe AAA movies, definitely not MLB The Show (baseball game) because as a condition of the MLB license it had to be multiplat.
But my point this entire time has been this: a lot of PC games now don't use the hardware, they're designed on the basis of "console first with PC as a platform", and most importantly the big advances on the PC come whenever a new console gen comes out.
@caekislove@TheMadPirate@coolboymew The other problem is, if you want to sell your game to certain markets, you have to end up making a console release. The entire reason Undertale got a console port from an outside developer wasn't because consoles were popular in the west, but because PCs were so unpopular in Japan for gaming (at least in 2017.). They've been a "niche nerd thing" for quite some time, especially with the decline of Japan's computer gaming market since the mid-90s and Windows shift (unless you count doujin games, VNs, and complex simulation games for autists). https://blog.playstation.com/2017/06/13/undertale-is-coming-to-playstation/
@caekislove@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@coolboymew >Yet the massive PC parts stores in Akihabara are always packed with shoppers. Someone's buying that stuff. Even so Japanese game developers themselves many times refuse or take years to port their games to PC because there's significantly more people that play on consoles compared to here which is really weird. PC game players there are like giga nerds or just VN readers (Which ironically had more success on handhelds like PSP previously).
@Ace66062@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@coolboymew Remove the Nintendo Switch from the mix and console gaming is basically dead in Japan. That said, yeah it seems most Japanese PC gamers buy PCs to play Western games on Steam. I think there's probably a pretty big untapped market there that's mostly being held back by the stubborn insistence they have of preferring media in their own language. 😂
@bleedingphoenix@Pawlicker@coolboymew I agree with the later. I mean, that's how it used to be back in the day. You make a game squashing every single possible bit of optimization capable of bringing a great game for that platform. That's how Nintendo manage to bring such great games like Star Fox and Stret Fighter : Alpha with the SFX chip in the last days of the Super Nintendo System. But today ... dunno.... it looks like a lot of laziness from studios to do just that.
@TheMadPirate@Pawlicker@coolboymew that's such a backwards way to go about it. if you make it for consoles first there's no need to "upgrade" it to PC, because it'll look nice anyway and run even better. if it's too hefty to run on consoles, make it PC exclusive. this mindset comes from a business goal that you need to market to every platform rather than show off the capabilities of that one piece of hardware. remember when Shinji Mikami said he'd decapitate himself if Resident Evil 4 released on anything but the Gamecube? and he left after the mass porting? that's integrity.
@caekislove@Ace66062@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@coolboymew BTW, Steamdeck is also a good option, but I decided to wait for version 2. Didn't like the layout of the controls, and I hope they become more Switch-like in version 2. But deck is still a great gaming device.
@TheMadPirate@Ace66062@Pawlicker@caekislove@morgthorak yes. It's literally Linux in desktop mode. Install video players from Discover, and I also installed trackma locally via some manipulation and I can watch anime at work during lunch
@TheMadPirate@Pawlicker@coolboymew laziness and overall incompetence. game devs of the past were computer engineers and software programmers first, and they used that to make a fun application. nowadays devs enter the field with a specialty in "game design" and business models for increasing player engagement. this is also why things like UI were so much nicer; video games were closer to software than movies.
@bleedingphoenix@Pawlicker@coolboymew That's were the "Games are a form of Art" narrative enters the field and everyone ends up shocked the game lacks interactivity and fun ( casie in point , as Susan Arendt once tried in her infamous article "In defense of games that aren't fun" ).
@TheMadPirate@Pawlicker@bleedingphoenix oh god, supporting the "games are art" bullshit was bad, because it lead to the fart sniffer "Games doesn't have to be fun" and such
@Pawlicker@coolboymew@bleedingphoenix I remember some cool adventure games and RPGs ( Fallout 3, Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade and TLJ : Dreamfall ) that had some clever sound puzzles. But yes, looks like a lost art too.
@bleedingphoenix@TheMadPirate@coolboymew sound programmers are neglected too. Old pinball machines had some clever sound programming from timing lights to the audio to seguing between songs during events.
This skill got lost when FM generated music was replaced with PCM sound recordings.
-"Muh mental health" game (turned later into trans stuff even though there was NOTHING to support that in the original and interviews from what I've researched) -I'm willing to bet the indie dev is big friends with everyone
@TheMadPirate@Pawlicker@bleedingphoenix I heard this game has some weird fanbase, that it's not as bad as you'd think. I believe I saw people from Poast praise it? However every other entry after they've fucked up
@coolboymew@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@bleedingphoenix A really sad case of fighting the wrong battle. Art is skilled and/or creative application of technique. People had already forgotten that before that whole debate.
@coolboymew@TheMadPirate@Ace66062@Pawlicker@caekislove@morgthorak it just now occurred to me that this is the first time that a device running classic desktop Linux (KDE in this case) has been successfully sold to the mass market since the Wall Mart Linspire PCs 20 years ago.
@DrScarGazer@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@coolboymew that's precisely the definition i use, and why i think games can be art. the mainstream approach that a pretty game is art neglects that video games are a composition of moving pictures, sound, and interactivity. losing one element ruins the composition. it's like film, where movies often neglect music scores or proper staging. combine it properly, and you have a movie worthy of being called art.
@bleedingphoenix@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@DrScarGazer Art design goes a long way. Despite the crustiness of the era, OOT/MM still looks amazing today because of spectacular art design and making a game to specifically fit the hardware they had to work with
@bleedingphoenix@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@coolboymew honestly there's way too many people on board during game development for games that seemingly do nothing but make things bland as possible. the existence of "game design" courses in colleges or the absolute flogging of career choice "usah experinach" into literally everything, unironically making games as bland as possible.
reminds me of that one time where one guy evoked a freudian slip and implied that japs think have different brains from others or "mental model"
And it's a problem of too many cooks, this is why AAA is terrible. Meanwhile, even in an AAA setting, Japan can still have creators driven games (For example: La creatividad :kojima: )
@Nelenese@Pawlicker@coolboymew@bleedingphoenix Maybe the reason why Elden Ring got such a high metacritic user score is because .... the game is challenging, has an interesting story behind it and is fun to play ?. Well, that's my 2 cents.
@coolboymew@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@DrScarGazer i feel this way about pretty much all xbox 360 games i've played lately. a lot have a "realistic" art style, but thanks to the clearly unreal properties and the care taken to physics and sound make games like Force Unleashed, Dead Rising, and Halo timeless.
@Pawlicker@Nelenese@coolboymew@bleedingphoenix I can conform that. I have felt motion sickness playing some of the Sherlock Holmes games ( like Sherlock Holmes : the Awakened ) in first person camera. If it walks too fast I start getting dizzy.
Funny enough, the same happened when I played crusty GBA, DS and 3DS in the bus. Banjo-Kazooie on GBA has such fucking crusty graphics that I got "cold sweat" motion sickness. I had to exit the bus a little early and walk the rest of the way, christ
@Pawlicker@DrScarGazer@coolboymew@bleedingphoenix I remember even back in the early 2000s console gamers complaining about Final Fantasy X being essentially an interactive movie. Doesn't seem like Squenix learn it's lesson since then though.
The true spirit of Square is found in their smaller dev teams, like for Trials of Mana. I legit cannot believe they were able to make that remake. Despite seemingly having a short budget, they made a perfect remake
@TheMadPirate@Pawlicker@DrScarGazer@coolboymew i have two consoles, a Wii and a 360. recently beat Halo Reach and Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions on it. i feel like that era was easily a peak in vidya.
@coolboymew@Pawlicker@TheMadPirate@DrScarGazer i need to set up my Wii still, i've been all in on the 360 lol. i've got my sights on Jet Set Radio Future and Dodonpachi Resurrection for my xbox library.
@bleedingphoenix@Pawlicker@DrScarGazer@coolboymew IIRC Microsoft eventually allowed chipped XBOX 360 to develop indie games on a limited license, and even released a developing kit for it. The Xbox 360 we used for QA back then were developing consoles and were destroyed by the company if they ever met the red ring of death. Same for the PS2 we used.
It was actually pretty great IIRC. There was a bunch of crap, but there was a lot of interesting extremely amateur stuff, not unlike the kind of stuff you'd find on Newgrounds
Zeboyd games started there BTW. A few games were ported, but a lot of stuff lost
@coolboymew@TheMadPirate@Pawlicker@bleedingphoenix >doom dos tbh i'd puke at seeing that nonsense just by looking at it, do yourself a favor and get a source port that doesn't completely look like ass
... Probably for the better considering the 40mb limit. I remember a lot of indies complaining about that. One in particular, a Fox, chess, whatever 3D game, I played it and oooooff my god it was rough, complained about it
Then there were companies like Shinen making full 3D racer and platformers on it
And Nigoro made motherfucking La-Mulana, under 40 goddamn mb on it