Conversation
Notices
-
It is only through faith in Jesus Christ alone that you are saved. No works, no practices. Christ came into this world to save all sinners, His work is complete. You will know He is true and put your faith in Him by the Grace of the Holy Spirit
It is never you, you are sinful, fallen, graceless, unrighteous. It is only through Jesus Christ that you be made whole again, truly in God's image as when He created Adam and Eve. Every one of us inherit sin as we are born from sinful creatures. You can NEVER make up for the sins you've committed and will commit. Jesus' sacrifice means nothing if you believe you can pay for your sins, for you truly cannot know the scope and weight of your sins. Even the "smallest" sin has enormous unforeseen and long consequences. We deal with the consequences of a fallen world, as people cry out as to why God would allow horrible things to happen as though these weren't the actions of our fathers that have impacted us to this very day
- Ardainian Hebrew Israelite repeated this.
-
@sharutiaburaddofouren
It's really annoying when anyone tries to declare who is or isn't Christian based on shit Martin Luther made up 1500 years into Christianity.
"Faith without works is dead."
"Produce good fruit as evidence of your repentance."
Obviously nobody can "earn" salvation, but God still expects us to do good works as proof of our faith.
-
@King_Noticer @sharutiaburaddofouren
Salvation is entirely dependent on the grace of God. But we are justified through both faith and works. The Gospels repeatedly emphasize that those who do not bear fruit will be bound up and tossed into the fire.
-
Yes, one should still try their best to live righteously and do good things because it is the right thing to do, even if being saved is not contingent upon it :akko_cultured:
-
@sharutiaburaddofouren
Sola Fide is the dumbest Protestant doctrine because it's neither biblical nor in line with Church teachings and tradition, yet it's the doctrine they're loudest and most insistent about.
-
@King_Noticer @sharutiaburaddofouren
Don't worry too much about it, just try to be a good person and have faith in Jesus Christ.
-
All this stuff hurts my head
-
@SpurgAnon @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer
This is where purgatory comes in.
-
@ArdainianRight @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer
>thief on the cross
>did no works whatsoever in his new faith
Okay, let's hear the cope argument
-
@SpurgAnon @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer You pass through purgatory into paradise.
-
@ArdainianRight @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer why do you blasphemy against God? What did he tell the thief that is directly in contradiction to that?
Or is it the belief of the apostolics that Christ lied? "Purgatory" isn't heaven, or did the definition change?
-
@sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer @SpurgAnon Purgatory is about purifying and preparing us for paradise. It's not about Christ's sacrifice being inadequate in any way.
-
@ArdainianRight @King_Noticer @SpurgAnon there is no purgatory. Your sins have been paid for by Christ. You are denying that He died for your sins, that His salvific work is complete. What does, "it is finished" mean then? According to your logic, nothing, because it still isn't finished until after your sins are purged. It is logically incomprehensible, it is disrespectful to Christ as it demands more atonement as though the blood, infinite in capacity as the Lord incarnate, is not enough. It is at odds with God's attributes as well. He cannot be all loving and all merciful if you still have yet been forgiven after Him wiping the slate of debt clean
-
@ArdainianRight @sharutiaburaddofouren I never liked Sola Fide nor Faith and Works as descriptions of how salvation works. The former leads people to disregard works completely and the latter leads people to misunderstand the role of works in my observations. My understanding of it is that it's by faith in Christ as a grace from God we are saved (Ephesians 2:8, Galatians 2:16, Romans 9:21), and works are symptomatic of that faith (James 2:17-18). The two are heavily intertwined, not separate boxes to tick. With the grace of faith fruit from it naturally follows.
-
@Tadano @sharutiaburaddofouren
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower. He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes and bears more fruit. You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you. Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and be burned."
Having faith in Christ is necessary to perform good works, and performing good works is necessary to remain in Christ. Faith and works are indeed intimately connected, and trying to separate the two was made up by Luther. St. Paul was referring to faith rather than works of the law, which means following a set of rules blindly without love, and not to works of charity.
-
What did Jesus die on tbe cross for, pope boy
-
@branman65 @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer @SpurgAnon
Christ died for our sins and won our salvation. Purgatory is not a matter of us earning anything, it is for our benefit that we might become pure as Christ is pure.
-
@SpurgAnon @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer
Buying indulgences is a corrupt practice that has long been condemned.
-
@ArdainianRight @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer >never mentioned till centuries later and paired with a cash for salvation scam
Brother...
-
@sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer @SpurgAnon Christ fully redeems us. Yet we are still given many trials and tribulations in this life as opportunities to grow in holiness. Purgatory is similar to these trials, given for our benefit, not because of any inadequacy in Christ's sacrifice.
-
@ArdainianRight @King_Noticer @SpurgAnon what is purifying if not purging of sins, which was already done on the cross? God is either perfect or He is no god at all. You can't have it both ways where His sacrifice on the cross means he sort kinda died for your sins, you just need a little something more. A concept which God never once mentioned in His earthly ministry, nor in His wisdom handed down to the prophets
-
@SpurgAnon @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer
Where is this? I've never heard of it being done in the modern era. Indulgences are sometimes offered as a grace in exchange for various kinds of devotions, but never for money. Anyone who does offer indulgences in exchange for money does so contrary to Catholic doctrine and commits a grave sin.
-
@ArdainianRight @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer i keep hearing this but the large rcc population where I'm at happily still sells them.
And actually, I'm going to buy one for the sake of argumentation.
-
@SpurgAnon @Tadano @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer
Faith and works are inherently interconnected, so his confession of faith in Christ was both, and through it he received salvation.
-
@Tadano @sharutiaburaddofouren @ArdainianRight @King_Noticer but do they qualify as works?
-
@SpurgAnon @sharutiaburaddofouren @ArdainianRight @King_Noticer He was justified by his faith, but to declare he did nothing in his new faith is false. He publicly rebuked the opposing thief, confessed and submitted himself to Christ only asking to be remembered (Luke 23:39-43). This is not to say doing these actions in and of themselves saved him (that's what faith does) but they were absolutely symptomatic of a faithful Christian.
-
When does Christ himself say we are justified by faith alone?
-
@ArdainianRight @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer when does Christ himself mention such a thing?
-
@SpurgAnon @ArdainianRight @King_Noticer @sharutiaburaddofouren
>Christians have a thousand-year tradition
yeah but in which of these texts, compiled and preserved for me by those same Christians, is the tradition stated?
I think they just got it wrong from the beginning.
Christianity actually died immediately, all the interim Christians went to hell (they were literally no better than the pagans they displaced), and I am resurrecting Christianity in the current year from scratch, dinosaur fossils, and a dictionary.
-
@apropos @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer @SpurgAnon
Christ does mention that He founds a Church, and St. Peter is the rock.
-
@SpurgAnon @Tadano @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer
I'm pretty sure they do. Either way, Sola Fide is stupid whether or not you believe in purgatory and the Catholic Church. Luther cherrypicks one passage in defense of his view and ignores the many, many passages indicating otherwise.
-
@ArdainianRight @Tadano @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer and does your church acknowledge this view also? Methinks they don't
-
@SpurgAnon @Tadano @sharutiaburaddofouren @ArdainianRight @King_Noticer The thief had faith but was not a position to preform works. The reason was saved was not faith alone, but that he would be willing to preform works if he we're not being hung. There many well bodied people who have faith but to lazy to preform works, and are those who are crippled or lame who would faithful and are willing to preform works but unable to. Be willing to preform the works can in the position your in
-
@apropos @sharutiaburaddofouren @ArdainianRight @King_Noticer thousands of years of tradition? And what happens when we can clearly identify that a tradition was an invention added after the fact? Lmao
-
@SpurgAnon @sharutiaburaddofouren @apropos @King_Noticer The idea of praying for and offering atonement for the dead was a Jewish tradition mentioned in 2 Maccabees 13:42-46. Purgatory was an expansion on this, but it wasn't totally made up after the fact.
-
@ArdainianRight @sharutiaburaddofouren Protestantism, like Islam, was essentially a jewish creation for the purpose of destroying the Catholic Church and thus Europe with it.
-
@admin @sharutiaburaddofouren
I wouldn't even care about a bunch of thoroughly exhausted theological arguments if Protestants didn't regularly insist that you're not a real Christian if you don't believe in something that's neither in the Bible nor has any basis in Christianity prior to Luther.
-
@SpurgAnon @sharutiaburaddofouren @apropos @King_Noticer
I'm pretty sure divination is condemned elsewhere in the Bible. I don't think praying for the dead is.
-
@ArdainianRight @sharutiaburaddofouren @apropos @King_Noticer sure it was. Interesting that that was determined to be scripture after the whole mess caused by a German as after the fact justification.
The same sets of dueterocanon also mention divination. Should a Christian engage in such?
-
@SpurgAnon @sharutiaburaddofouren @apropos @King_Noticer
That's more of a Catholic vs. Orthodox argument on the subject of apostolic succession, since it still affirms the foundation of a Church as the source of authority.
-
@ArdainianRight @sharutiaburaddofouren @apropos @King_Noticer then why did he repeat that phrase to all the disciples sans the punny nickname part? Seems a tad odd.
-
@LodedDiaper @Tadano @sharutiaburaddofouren @ArdainianRight @King_Noticer alright then. What is the absolute limit of this and where does the rules for such come from? What the prescribed manners of works for differing cripples?
-
@SpurgAnon @Tadano @sharutiaburaddofouren @ArdainianRight @King_Noticer Usually Prots at least engage with i say, even if they can be dumb. This is the type of response i expect from Caths, who say "that's different from the church"
-
@LodedDiaper @Tadano @sharutiaburaddofouren @ArdainianRight @King_Noticer sounds like a big cope
-
@SpurgAnon @LodedDiaper @Tadano @sharutiaburaddofouren @King_Noticer
God knows what we can and can't do and is capable of providing just judgment.
-
@DEERBLOOD @sharutiaburaddofouren @apropos @King_Noticer @SpurgAnon
I don't even care if they have dumb theology. I don't pretend they're not Christians over this. They loudly and regularly insist I'm not a real Christian because I don't agree with a random German preacher in the 1500s interpretation of Scripture.
-
>don't pray for the dead, it's an insinuation that Jesus wasn't good enough
Prots are fucking kooks
-
@SuperSnekFriend @sharutiaburaddofouren
Where is Sola Fide in the Gospels?
-
It is not a judgement on who is and is not a Christian. What was at stake during the Reformation and what is at stake now is whether people believe the true Gospel or the false gospels. The question is very simple: what is the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and do you believe it? Both the reformers like Luther, Calvin, and Chemnitz and the bishops of the Council of Trent, like Paul III, Psaume, and Pious IV understood the stakes:
"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-9)
"For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
And 'If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?'" (1 Peter 4:17-18)
If one teaches or believes another gospel than the one explicitly taught by Scriptures, they remain dead and condemned in sin and will go to eternal damnation after death.
The Council of Trent codified ex cathedra that anyone who teaches that grace is only the flavor, that is the work, of God, he is damned (Canon XI).
While the Reformers promoted the view being espoused by Shalltear-stan. Rome and Wittenberg cannot both be right.
-
@SpurgAnon @sharutiaburaddofouren @ArdainianRight @King_Noticer Absolutely.
-
Unironically 🧐
-
Silence heretic my slightly different version of our religion is better than yours
-
Or they'll accuse you of idolatry for respecting Jesus' mom
-
My only problem with being a Protestant is Jean is one too
-
@SuperSnekFriend @sharutiaburaddofouren
Everyone believes in the necessity of faith. The only passage that could possibly be interpreted as supporting faith alone apart from works is the letter to the Romans, which refers to works of the law, and there are many other passages referring to the necessity of good works.
-
Did you not see the pics in OP? It's taught from beginning to end:
"Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him.
In the LORD all the offspring of Israel shall be justified and shall glory." (Isaiah 45:24-25)
"No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
That is why his faith was 'counted to him as righteousness.'
But the words 'it was counted to him' were not written for his sake alone,
but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord,
who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God." (Romans 4:20-5:2)
"But what does it say? 'The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart' (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.'" (Romans 10:8-11)
-
That it false.
-
How so?
-
@LodedDiaper @sharutiaburaddofouren @apropos @King_Noticer @SpurgAnon It's in the Catholic Bible. I forgot which books Luther cut out.
-
@ArdainianRight @sharutiaburaddofouren @apropos @King_Noticer @SpurgAnon I thought Maccabees was an apocryphal book, if it's part of the old testament canon then why is no reference to it the the new testament?
-
I didn't realize catholics accepted sola scriptura all of a sudden 🤔
-
@doctorsex @sharutiaburaddofouren @SuperSnekFriend
I'm trying to point out it doesn't work even under Protestant standards.
-
@doctorsex @sharutiaburaddofouren @SuperSnekFriend
I think Luther was rightfully upset about corruption within the Church, but got carried away in some places. I think there's a lot of confusion over grace, faith, and works, and salvation vs. justification, that can lead to some Catholics constantly agonizing over all their shortcomings(so-called Catholic guilt) as opposed to trusting in God to make up for your weakness, and I think Sola Fide is a backlash to that error that also errs in thinking there's no expectation by God for you to try to lead a virtuous life.
-
Setting aside all of the examples snelfriend posted, why do you think that at no point when any of this stuff was being thought through, any of the reformers stepped back for a second and said "hey wait, this don't mesh together" if there wasn't something there? People were literally willing to die on this hill, unless you want to assert the reformation was nothing more than sepcific and maliciously anti-catholic meddling to... some end, which is certainly an interesting take
-
@idea_enjoyer @sharutiaburaddofouren @SuperSnekFriend
Protestants really can't seem to distinguish between "faith" and "faith alone." Catholics don't teach that anyone can "earn" salvation, and that Christ alone saves, and all we can do is be open to the grace of God, which manifests itself in both faith and good works. Everyone basically agrees that we're saved by the grace of God rather than our own merit, which is what that's talking about, but justification is through faith and works.
-
Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
It's all over the Bible, but I know Catholics aren't as familiar, so it's ok bro. But take it from a protestant, its there
-
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.
-
Yes, saving faith is demonstrated through God working in us to will and to act according to His good purpose. The justification of a Christian which happens after Salvation (which happens by faith) involves our faith moving us to act out of love for God, helping to demonstrate that our faith is genuine.
Abraham's belief is when God called him His friend, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and Abraham's actions proved that his faith was genuine.
Works do not save. We want to do good because we are saved, but all our righteousness is as special as a used tampon in God's eyes. Only through faith in Jesus and His work are we saved, and only through Jesus are our works acceptable to God
-
@idea_enjoyer @sharutiaburaddofouren @SuperSnekFriend @wgiwf
Our profession of faith doesn't save us either, because there is nothing we can do to merit our own salvation. We are saved by God's grace alone. Faith and works refer to justification, what marks some to be saved while others are not. God's grace of salvation is given to all those who sincerely open themselves up to God, and this openness is expressed in both professions of faith and good works.
-
I'm not huge on the interdenominational fight, I'm happy for Christians to just follow God wherever they are, but when people say what you did, the "where is it in the Bible bro" thing... It's obviously there. Dumb questions are dumb, even when I'm the one asking them.
Those verses are worded exactly as an answer to your question.
-
@idea_enjoyer @sharutiaburaddofouren @SuperSnekFriend
I'm tired of interdenominational slapfighting too, mostly prots saying that Catholics aren't Christians. But Catholics agree that we are saved by the grace of God rather than our own merit. Catholics do profess a faith in Jesus Christ and recognize that we are entirely dependent upon Him for salvation. And I do study the Bible, I don't appreciate being accused of never reading the Bible.
-
@doctorsex @sharutiaburaddofouren @SuperSnekFriend
Most of this is both sides talking past each other. I just don't like being accused of not being a Christian over some semantic disagreements people had in the 1500s.
-
That's fair, but I'm pretty sure (again, not an expert, superlutheran is probably the guy for this) that the protestant position was always that good works necessarily came from saving faith, but if the works themselves were weighed as what saved us, we would fall short, bottom line. I absolutely agree that the lines and definitions can get very fuzzy or way too semantic, and that definitely does not make these discussions easy.
-
It was a brotherly poke my friend. You poked protestants over faith alone, so one poked back. 👉
Beyond that, if you believe in Jesus Christ and are saved, you're my brother in the faith, be well.
-
>Only through faith in Jesus and His work are we saved, and only through Jesus are our works acceptable to God.
I don't think God thinks so little of good deeds, despite them not being sufficient for salvation. The law is written on our hearts, and it makes sense to me that those who demonstrate "goodness" despite ignorance of Christ would be seen in a better light than those who did not. Good Samaritan for example.
-
From what I understand, good works without the saving faith of Christ go towards the infinity sin debt and basically don‘t exist, because subtracting a finite amount from infinity is still infinity
They’re acceptable to God when you are saved through faith in Jesus because there’s no longer a debt and you get to keep your good boy points
But I’m also stupid and I don’t know nothing, so don’t listen to me
-
I think it addresses it, and is a good faith interpretation. No work will save us, no matter how good. If we are talking about non Christians, it's obviously better if they aren't completely wicked reprobates, but their good works will not earn them salvation, though the Bible does indicate God notices those who fear God.
Works never earn you anything. Look at even relationships to learn this truth.
Song of Solomon 8:7 ESV
Many waters cannot quench love, neither can floods drown it. If a man offered for love all the wealth of his house, he would be utterly despised.
What is valued is the person behind the work.
-
Isaiah 64:6 ESV
We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
-
Doesnt address my point -or- you're taking a bad faith interpretation of what I said.
-
You're correct on the first part. My point was specifically about how God looks at people doing good deeds. As I said, it's not enough for salvation, but I don't think God dismisses everything a person does if they're not a Christian.
-
This, basically. Anything built on the foundation of Jesus Christ is our work, and Paul says our work will be tested with fire, after saying that no one can lay any other foundation than what has been layed, which Foundation is Jesus Christ.
-
@SuperSnekFriend @sharutiaburaddofouren @idea_enjoyer I believe they're referring to sanctifying grace as something different from the grace of salvation, but I'm not overly concerned with splitting those hairs or whether or not I clash with Church hierarchy. I'm just here to go to Mass, receive the sacraments, read the Bible, and pray to God.
-
>But Catholics agree that we are saved by the grace of God rather than our own merit.
This is not what Rome teaches. From Rome's own Catechism, see the pics.
If this is not what you believe, that's great. That's more than wonderful as you may yet still be saved according to the Lord. Just know that you are butting against official doctrine of the Church of Rome and can be formally excommunicated if caught and not penitent.
-
An eternity of dropping a hammer on your toes is preferable to an eternity of being skinned alive? I guess?
-
@BowsacNoodle @sharutiaburaddofouren @ArdainianRight @King_Noticer @SuperSnekFriend @idea_enjoyer @wgiwf what does it matter if they don't go to heaven though?
-
@King_Noticer @sharutiaburaddofouren @ArdainianRight @BowsacNoodle @SuperSnekFriend @idea_enjoyer @wgiwf Isn't the point that anything times infinity is infinity?
If there's no salvation for the unbeliever, that's it. Same for the believer.
-
>It is only through faith in Jesus Christ alone that you are saved
Except if you're Catholic or Orthodox. Then no matter how much faith in Christ you have, you're not saved because... reasons.
> No works, no practices.
Except for all the verses saying otherwise, but sure, whatever.
>12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:12
Protestants have quite the conundrum. Christ came to save, but according to protestants, He timed it wrong because a millennium and half passed of souls perishing before Luther & Calvin came to say, "Ackshually..."
For all their, "I'm a bible believing Christian" talk, they don't actually read it.
Most don't even got to Church, sure why would you? Believe Christ saves - except satan & demons, they believe but aren't saved - and that's it, church isn't necessary, reading scripture isn't even necessary, nothing is except belief. just ignore the fact satan believes, how'd that work out for him? satan didn't fall for lack of belief, he fell for lack of obedience.
The protestants that do go to "church" just have the same handful of verses taken out of context read to them then recycled again.
original new agers. basically, leave anyway you want, just profess Christ and you're aces... which Jesus literally rebuked.
-
This whole conversation is around accusations and bad interpretations of people's beliefs. I'm attacking the premise that God doesn't appreciate good deeds in the objective sense unless a person is a Christian. That was directly stated by several people here, which is odd to me for several reasons.
-
I wish you understood the verses I shared and the point I was making, because if you did, these things would no longer be odd to you
-
St. Augustine didn’t blaspheme God
🧛♀️✝️Ilya🦇Ornstein☃️Fan💒🎄
Ardainian Hebrew Israelite
King_Noticer
Spurg
Tadano ❄️🎅
Branman65🍟
of nothing
Loded-Diaper
313Chris:hellokitty_headbang:
Pride of Utopia
❄️:padoru: SantaSnekFriend :padoru:❄️
Nice Coach Weiss
Dan_Hulson
Santa Noodle ☦️
Dr. Sex, Ph.d, Esq.
idea_enjoyer
Wolfgirl in Wheatfield
Griffith
InternetLeper
Victor_Emmanuel
All ０７６萌ＳＮＳ content and data are available under the