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Had an unfortunately atheistic friend attempt a gotcha citing Numbers 31:1-18 proclaiming God to be cruel and immoral. Also he's inferring that the Israelites kept female children as sex slaves using verse 18 in particular, which is utter nonsense.
This was punishment upon the Midians for sensing Moabite women to tempt the Israelites into fornication in Numbers 25, and this is not the first time God has used the Israelites as a tool to deliver his divine punishment (see: slaughter of the Canaanites). I would appreciate further help in elaborating on this miniature apologetic, however.
CC: @SuperLutheran @hazlin
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@Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran 1. Push the Anti-Thesis
In the atheist's own worldview, we are an psychosomatic illusions of consciousness caused by physical neurons firing in a particular way. Why does a bunch of neurons firing in a particular way care about the "suffering" of bunch of other neurons firing in a particular way, but far removed from it geographically and chronologically? Biological machines with neurons only existing to spread its "selfish genes" have no spirit to be offended against. A bunch of those blobs of neurons in the ancient past had pain receptors go off. So what?
Atheism has no absolute and personal moral standard that also provides absolute and exhaustive efficacy and enforcement of that moral standard to be universal. The atheist has no logical and necessary claim to call anything or anyone "immoral and cruel" because both are moral statements that require that absolute, universal standard to mean anything from one conscious spirit to the next. Remember, you, he, and I are only physical neurons firing in specific sequence and nothing more, supposedly. That cannot, necessarily, provide any such universal standard whatsoever.
The atheist is stealing theological and philosophical capital from God and Christendom whenever the atheist and like religions make any moral claim or claim about God's, Christ', and Christians' morality or lack there of. Never let him.
Finally, God's morality or immorality has nothing to do with the fundamental tenet of atheism that He does not exist. Supposing that omnipotent God very well could be "cruel and immoral", capricious, and lying about His self-claim of absolute goodness (that's not possible at all and is blasphemous but humor me), relatively applying a standard, what is the atheist going to do about it? There's an abundance of evidence of God's existence and the resurrection of Christ, establishing Christ' deity, among other fundamental beliefs of Christianity. What is comes before what ought. Unlike the foolish servant in Matthew 25:24-27, the atheist is better off starting to ass kiss God in any way possible before a worse fate befalls him, if he had any inkling of truth to that "immoral" or ambiguous morality claim. Being like an infant who covers his eyes and thinks his parents don't exist or cannot see him, the atheist's atheism will not stop the Lord from doing whatever He pleases.
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@SuperSnekFriend @Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran atheism.jpg
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@Lavaearth @Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran The Lord accepted the Gibeonites' collective repentance, even when the Israelites were at their doorstep to destroy them. The Gospel is that shrimple.
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@Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran 2. Don't do Bible studies with Unbelievers, but do Bible studies with Unbelievers
I'd only go into the finer details of the Word if your atheist acquaintance showed any remorse or evidence that the Spirit is working upon; otherwise you are wasting your time. We are not to throw holy things to the dogs. He can stay mad all he wants if he does not like you not arguing with him about this passage. When God says "come let us reason together", He follows with "Obey me and receive good or else," (Isaiah 1:18-20) and not any true argument by human standards. That should be your mindset.
As for the passage:
It's bizarre that the atheist presumes the Midianites are some innocent nation that did nothing to deserve their fate. Besides active subverting Israel's obedience to God, which alone sealed their fate, they also often materially attacked the Israelites (as seen in Joshua). The incident with the Midianite woman was also not a mere act of fornication. It was an active attempt to sway Israel from Yahweh to a false god. This subversion also was the cause for a plague upon Israel, which itself costed many lives.
And the Midianites had plenty of warning too to obey God and not fight against Him and His people, coming from Jethro, Moses' father and a faithful priest of Midian (Exodus 18:1) and partially from Balaam, before his treachery (Num. 22:13). They had no excuse when the Lord pronounced judgement upon that nation.
Atheists may huff and puff all he wants about the fate of the virgin girls, but there is nothing immoral about it. They were spared on God's command which is rare in Israel's conquest of Canaan. They now had the direct opportunity to be shown and believe God's Word, which would save their souls.
As for the "slavery" claim, any woman who did not become a wife of someone became a maiden slave with all the rights God demanded for slaves in His laws. And any maiden slave that was used sexually, functionally became the master's wife in the eyes of the Law. It's not as if the maidens entered a state of constant abuse, which the onus is on the atheist to prove and not presume. If Israelites were abusing Midianite slaves, as we see elsewhere in the Pentateuch and Joshua, the Lord would have quickly made apparent of Israel's sin.
We have an example of God avenging abused slaves with the Gibeonites after Saul massacred many of them (2 Samuel 21:1).
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@SuperSnekFriend @Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran Speaking from personal experience, may be similar to other people.
This passage on Numbers and the fate of the Medianites and other people in the Old Testament have been disturbing me for a long time. For a long time, I was feeling like the other people in the Old Testament were just evil firewood to be burned away to make the israelites and their God look better. Modern jew behavior being modeled after the belief that everyone else is as wicked as those people.
After reading the thread initially, I started thinking heavily about it, then I remembered other Old Testament story.
Jonah, the whale and the people of Nineveh.
It brought relief to my heart to remember people being actually letting go of their wicked ways and being saved instead of destroyed.
And now, you brought up the Gibeonites story.
Thanks.
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@hazlin @Tadano @SuperLutheran I like Divine Command theory personally
Way easier to accept Old Testament morality and avoid the current neo-marcionism by understanding that things are wrong because God decides they're wrong, instead of saying that God Himself must conform to some higher moral law
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@idea_enjoyer @Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran God and the higher moral law are one. If you think God is wrong, it's you who is wrong.
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@Tadano @SuperLutheran There are obviously a lot of ways this can be handled.
The most direct being to point out, that they can attempt to sit as judge over God at their own peril. I think that is how satan got his name, by accusing God.
The second most direct being to point out, that they were only able to keep the children through disobedience to God... they were supposed to kill those children.
Thirdly, I think they are probably right on the money about the fate of said children.
But, overall, the morality of the Israelites or of God's decisions in a modern context isn't your problem. If they want to hold onto this, as a reason to reject the most wonderful person in all of creation, that is their problem at the end of the day. And, God will protect their right to choose such an ironic fate.
"God made the best decision available at the time, and you'd be wise to not hold it against Him." ~ my response, probably
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@ArdainianRight @Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran Virtually all moderns think God is wrong in the Old Testament
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@idea_enjoyer @Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran God had His reasons.
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@ArdainianRight @Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran I have no problem with the Old Testament.
"God had His reasons" is true, and those reasons continue today. It's not like the morality of God changed during that blank page between old and new testaments
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@idea_enjoyer @Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran The discrepancy is the difference between justice and mercy. We might deserve harsh punishment, but Christ's mercy offers us redemption.
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@idea_enjoyer @Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran Perceived discrepancy. Mercy and Justice have always been core attributes of God.
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@ArdainianRight @Tadano @hazlin @SuperLutheran There is no discrepancy.
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