Conversation

Notices

1. Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Friday, 16-Dec-2022 22:25:42 JST Aral Balkan

   Now imagine if Mastodon didn’t exist and this was happening.…

   Aren’t we lucky that some guy in Germany decided to spend his own time, money, and effort to build it?

   Hopefully we’ll get lucky again…

   Or, you know, maybe we can finally consider supporting tech that’s in the common good from the common purse. And fund organisations and long-term development, not just ad-hoc academic “projects” that get abandoned the moment the money is gone.

   https://ar.al/2019/11/29/the-future-of-internet-regulation-at-the-european-parliament/

   #funding #tech #eu #commons

   • Luke Van In (lukevanin@noc.social)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 02:38:49 JST Luke Van In

     in reply to

     @aral I hear there used to be this thing called "tax" which was used to fund efforts that benefited society

     Wonder what happened to it.

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 02:38:49 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Luke Van In

     @lukevanin This.

   • Alexander Goeres (jabgoe2089@hub.netzgemeinde.eu)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 02:44:44 JST Alexander Goeres

     in reply to
     @Aral Balkan well, yes, nice that somebody started developing mastodon. but there were other fediverse programs available before mastodon started development. so if twitter had exploded without mastodon, there would have been many other alternatives. look for the term: fediverse
   • John Godsland (gozzy@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 02:47:01 JST John Godsland

     in reply to

     @aral How do you envisage that working? (I've read some of your writing and seen a few of your presentations but I've not seen anything specific on this topic so apologies if I've missed it.) I think that as a principal any software used by publicly funded bodies should be open source and available for others to adopt.

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 02:47:01 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • John Godsland

     @gozzy Should be free and open, yes, and unable to be closed off/captured/sold.

     More: https://ar.al/2019/11/29/the-future-of-internet-regulation-at-the-european-parliament/

   • Harald Eilertsen (harald@hub.volse.no)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 03:20:31 JST Harald Eilertsen

     in reply to
     @Aral Balkan It's not like Eugen invented this stuff. The fediverse existed before Mastodon, and there's plenty of other software that makes up the fediverse, some of them both older and way more capable than Mastodon.
     
     So replace "some guy in Germany" with "a whole bunch of people across the internet".
     
     But yeah, funding these people and projects so that people can dedicate more time to work on them, would be a very welcome change indeed!
   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 07:18:23 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Iain MacLean
     • muesli

     @pkboi Who knows, Iain, who knows. We can but try.

     @fribbledom

   • Iain MacLean (pkboi@mstdn.social)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 07:18:24 JST Iain MacLean

     in reply to

     • muesli

     @aral @fribbledom Good speech. But did they listen? Politicians the world over seem in thrall of the US-style digital capitalism and citizens seem happy to trade away virtually any freedom and privacy in return for convenience. We have been very well trained to accept this, and as long as innovation is left largely to profit-orientated private businesses, achieving personal digital sovereignty for everyone will be difficult.

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 07:30:44 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Russell

     @viciousnarwhal I worry about this too… https://ar.al/2022/11/09/is-the-fediverse-about-to-get-fryed-or-why-every-toot-is-also-a-potential-denial-of-service-attack/

   • Russell (viciousnarwhal@noc.social)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 07:30:45 JST Russell

     in reply to

     @aral it may not be long until Google or Microsoft jump on the Mastodon bandwagon. Then it will be embrace and extend and integrate.

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 18:41:11 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Rachel Lawson

     @rachel_norfolk What a bad-faith reading of what I wrote, Rachel, thanks.

     Better never had any EU funding to begin with and we kept Better going for five years even though it wasn’t making us enough money to pay the rent. We ceased work on it finally when Apple announced it was going to violate everyone’s privacy by implementing client-side scanning.

     https://ar.al/2021/12/16/saying-goodbye-to-an-old-friend/

     That aside, I’ve always said a tracker blocker is not a long-term solution. And we continue to work on the latter.

   • Rachel Lawson (rachel_norfolk@mastodon.lol)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 18:41:12 JST Rachel Lawson

     in reply to

     @aral projects that are abandoned when the money is gone? Like Better, you mean?

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 19:03:37 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • suupermanian

     @suupermanian Unfortunately as systems implode, it’s usually the most marginalised that still bear the brunt of the upheaval. And we rarely have a guarantee that those who will fill the power vacuum will have better intentions. Personally, I’d like to see an evolution to a kinder, more caring world while limiting the damage to those who can afford it the least. But if the people want a revolution, I can’t fault them for it either. It just wouldn’t be my first choice.

   • suupermanian (suupermanian@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 19:03:38 JST suupermanian

     in reply to

     @aral Geat point, but I'm beginning to think that this is exactly the way these things should happen. Let the system that's not working implode on itself and then only will ppl move to the alternative. In the mean time let the ppl already affected and dissatisfied help build the alternative. It'll give the enough cover to build properly decentralized alternatives. At least that's my takeaway for now.

   • Danielle (violetathena@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 19:18:52 JST Danielle

     in reply to

     @aral the original project received funding from the EU. I think there should be a permanent fund for open source projects #EU

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 19:18:52 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Eugen Rochko
     • Danielle

     @violetathena Unless I’m mistaken, not until it was up and running. Please correct me if I’m wrong @Gargron. Did you receive any EU funding for Mastodon at the start and is there an ongoing/permanent funding stream from them that’s not based on implementing certain features/specific deliverables?

     (Because there should be.)

   • Sebastian Lasse (sl007@digitalcourage.social)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 20:37:43 JST Sebastian Lasse

     in reply to

     • Prabprab
     • Thierry Breton
     • Konstantin v. Notz
     • Jan Philipp Albrecht
     • Margrethe Vestager

     @aral
     reminds me of my 1 hour talk with the Tech Lead of the Digital Services Act #DSA Prabhat Agarwal @Prabprab (sic) [ https://ar.al/2019/11/29/the-future-of-internet-regulation-at-the-european-parliament/ ]
     Had published the protocol in forum/fedi by the time but today, I can only stress the fact, that he _promised_ to talk to @EC_Commissioner_Breton about this funding.
     I demand that this happens. NOW.

     I had described how valuable & important a diverse ecosystem of ActivityPub Clients would be and how it could even suite EU.
     European Democracy is under double-attack now.

     I do demand the same from my gov. @KonstantinNotz @janalbrecht
     under https://sovereigntechfund.de/en.html beginning New Years Eve !
     – their instance is censored by Elmo too now.

     After forced long listening of “Ode to Joy” I have expressed my deepest concerns and strong protest in a Phone Call with staff of @EC_Commissioner_Vestager
     https://digitalcourage.social/@sl007/109522641223087409
     and the responsible Parliament Vice-President addressed Elmo.

     PS, all, please sign https://digitalcourage.de/blog/2022/kaili-chatcontrol-investigate

     DSA is in effect. Enforce and Fund Fedi. NOW.

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 20:42:20 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Eugen Rochko
     • Danielle
     • NGI Zero open source funding

     @Gargron @violetathena @NGIZero Thanks, Eugen.

     That’s exactly the issue I’ve raised twice at the European Parliament now. That we need funding for organisations not features and we need it at the start, not after it’s impossible to ignore that something works and is being used (because not everyone can or should have to undertake the burden of getting to that point by themselves. Some of us do, but if we require that as a rite of passage we’re going to limit the potential for alternatives.)

   • Eugen Rochko (gargron@mastodon.social)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 20:42:22 JST Eugen Rochko

     in reply to

     • Danielle
     • NGI Zero open source funding

     @aral @violetathena I didn't receive any EU funding until 2022 through @NGIZero. No, there is no ongoing stream, it was based on a specific timeframe and a specific set of milestones. I started working on Mastodon in 2016 without any external funding.

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 20:44:58 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Eugen Rochko
     • Danielle
     • NGI Zero open source funding

     @violetathena Yeah, it’s difficult to get journalists to report things accurately sometimes. Thanks for the source.

     @Gargron @NGIZero

   • Danielle (violetathena@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 20:44:59 JST Danielle

     in reply to

     • Eugen Rochko
     • NGI Zero open source funding

     @Gargron @aral @NGIZero ha, didn’t know that. This is where I got this from:

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 20:47:08 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Eugen Rochko
     • Danielle
     • NGI Zero open source funding
     • Rigo Wenning

     @rigo There’s a lot to unpack there but, in short:

     - Exponential growth is the success criteria of Silicon Valley (and exponential growth with finite resources is the definition of extinction). So let’s not adopt that success criteria and try to incentivise the opposite: sustainable growth and scaling horizontally not vertically.

     - Yes, Mastodon and the fediverse (and, if I may say, initiatives like our own Small Web) require steady/ongoing public funding.

     @Gargron @violetathena @NGIZero

   • Rigo Wenning (rigo@mamot.fr)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 20:47:17 JST Rigo Wenning

     in reply to

     • Eugen Rochko
     • Danielle
     • NGI Zero open source funding

     @Gargron @aral @violetathena @NGIZero

     I encourage you to get more funding because you need to face growth, exponential growth. And all on AWS will not make it on the long run.

   • Danielle (violetathena@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 22:11:35 JST Danielle

     in reply to

     • Kevin Teljeur ❄️
     • Eugen Rochko
     • NGI Zero open source funding

     @kevinteljeur @aral @Gargron @NGIZero unfortunately, I can’t really see how public funding can be doled out in a non-bureaucratic fashion. Taxpayers are generally very weary of how their money are spent and require assurances. This is why so many NGOs are focused on providing help with the bureaucracy 🫤

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 22:11:35 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Kevin Teljeur ❄️
     • Eugen Rochko
     • Danielle
     • NGI Zero open source funding

     @violetathena It should be going to organisations and the criteria should be that they’re carrying out research and development and it should stipulate that neither those organisations nor anything that results from their efforts can be closed off/captured/sold.

     We should be encouraging experimentation. Silicon Valley is. Any fool with a half-baked idea for farming people can get $5M in funding. Then they can pivot. And pivot again. And it’s OK if they fail too.

     @kevinteljeur @Gargron @NGIZero

   • Kevin Teljeur ❄️ (kevinteljeur@mastodon.online)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 22:11:36 JST Kevin Teljeur ❄️

     in reply to

     • Eugen Rochko
     • Danielle
     • NGI Zero open source funding

     @aral @Gargron @violetathena @NGIZero A problem with the EC methodology is that there is a lot of bureaucratic overhead, from what I’ve seen. If you’re not a big organisation, you’d spend your time managing applications for funding rather than doing the things being funded (also open to being corrected, but that was my view from ‘inside the tent’). The good intent is there to fund OS, but with too much overhead.

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 22:13:15 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Kevin Teljeur ❄️
     • Eugen Rochko
     • Danielle
     • NGI Zero open source funding

     @violetathena We should be implementing similar funding but with strong protections in place to ensure that anything produced is free and open source and that neither the organisations that receive it, nor the work that’s produced can be sold off or enclosed.

     That’s exactly what I told the European Parliament the other time I was there.

     (And they looked at me like I was from another planet and duly ignored it.)

     ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

     @kevinteljeur @Gargron @NGIZero

   • +mala (mala@fosstodon.org)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 22:31:46 JST +mala

     in reply to

     • Kevin Teljeur ❄️
     • Eugen Rochko
     • Danielle
     • NGI Zero open source funding

     @violetathena @NGIZero @kevinteljeur @aral @Gargron This is a very good point. I worked on (academic) EU project proposals in the past and that is a wholly different job wrt implementing the actual project.
     Universities often have internal teams that help with this, or can consult with external organizations (eg https://www.euresearch.ch was one I had a great experience with). Happy to link to contacts there!

   • Danielle (violetathena@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 22:32:32 JST Danielle

     in reply to

     • Kevin Teljeur ❄️
     • Eugen Rochko
     • NGI Zero open source funding
     • +mala

     @mala @NGIZero @kevinteljeur @aral @Gargron usually the way this is done for others things in the public interest is that the funding is allocated to an agency and then the agency will set criteria. For examples a film grant In cinematography will be based on the cinematographic qualities of the project, not necessarily the story or anything else.

   • +mala (mala@fosstodon.org)'s status on Saturday, 17-Dec-2022 22:32:33 JST +mala

     in reply to

     • Kevin Teljeur ❄️
     • Eugen Rochko
     • Danielle
     • NGI Zero open source funding

     @violetathena @NGIZero @kevinteljeur @aral @Gargron I do not have a clear view of where individual opensource projects would stand here, and what is required to be considered valuable and convincing enough to be funded (eg would it be better to go for many small prjs or propose a consortium working on one umbrella project?).
     I agree though that it would be best to have professional assistance to prepare proposals

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Sunday, 18-Dec-2022 07:35:59 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Little Detritus

     @littledetritus I hadn’t; thanks for the heads up :) Bookmarked.

   • Little Detritus (littledetritus@geraffel.social)'s status on Sunday, 18-Dec-2022 07:36:00 JST Little Detritus

     in reply to

     @aral Have you heard of the Souvereign Tech Fund?

     https://sovereigntechfund.de/

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Sunday, 18-Dec-2022 21:12:46 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Alex

     @cubicroot My point wasn’t so much the first half of what I wrote as the second. Indeed there are. Some of us have even sold homes and made other sacrifices in order to try and keep doing it full time.

     https://small-tech.org

   • Alex (cubicroot@mastodon.online)'s status on Sunday, 18-Dec-2022 21:12:47 JST Alex

     in reply to

     @aral basically no software will run without the work of dozens of volunteers. Even big tech companies heavily rely on their work. So yeah great to have mastodon, but there are a lot of other people working in their free time on stuff that is rather more basic than masto and also deserve a shout-out.