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1. Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 18:34:50 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

   /var/tmp/portage/media-gfx/inkscape-1.3.2-r2/work/inkscape-1.3.2/src/3rdparty/2geom/include/2geom/path.h:846:20: error: no member named 'unique' in 'std::shared_ptr<Geom::PathInternal::PathData>'

   Why is it always C++ that breaks like this.

   • NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 18:34:45 JST NEETzsche

     in reply to

     • pistolero
     @p Why do you think it turned out this way?
     
     @lanodan
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 18:34:45 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     @NEETzsche @lanodan I think Guido had some ego-investment: while he was BDFL, he didn't want to read that Python was shit, and usually they'd name him. Now it's a committee. Keeping Python stable as a platform for development is now no single person's job: no one person receives the angry emails, no one person is dedicated to it.
     
     Ruby has a release engineer and if your shit breaks anyone's code, it doesn't get into the release. It is someone's fault.
     † top dog :pedomustdie: likes this.
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 18:34:46 JST pistolero

     in reply to
     @lanodan Yeah, I was complaining about this a few weeks ago and I forget who it was (I think laurel) that said it's because of the data science guys. I think, although I do not like his language and I hear from someone that met him that he is an off-putting person, Guido was keeping things stable and when he wandered off, the movefastbreakthings kids took over, or at least the phenomenon of Python being a disaster seems to have started after his exit. (Ironically, Ruby programs I wrote 20 years ago still run as long as they keep to the stdlib; I don't think anyone would have figured Ruby for the stable project run by adults when compared to Python, but I think that's the fault of the Rails dinguses. Even I expected Python to be more boring and stable.)
   • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 18:34:47 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • pistolero
     @p Well Python problem more that code tends to rot, specially for big programs and quite few times it's the standard library which broke API.
     And quite few times means coredump-less crashes in the middle of runtime, enjoy the data loss.
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 18:34:48 JST pistolero

     in reply to
     @lanodan So far, once I get a Python program to execute, it usually runs reliably without weird crashes; the first half is similar. C++ is built on sand.
     
     This is why it's not so weird for gamedev: they tend to completely isolate their builds and bundle in everything. But for desktop software like browsers and Inkscape and whatever else, it's dependency hell to get it to build and then once it does, the wind blows at a GUI toolkit and every C++ program explodes. You'd think it'd be the opposite for a language that is built and linked versus an interpreted language.
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 18:34:49 JST pistolero

     in reply to
     @lanodan
     
     > Why is it always C++ that breaks like this.
     
     You know why.
   • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Monday, 23-Sep-2024 18:34:49 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • pistolero
     @p Yeah, pretty much rhetorical.
     
     I'd have to include Python in the "Why is it always you when something breaks?"
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 14:41:59 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     @lanodan @NEETzsche
     
     > what do you mean you want it's exact Source Code?
     
     I tried to install that auto-translator but it couldn't find most of the dependencies and this turns out to have been because I have disabled installing "wheels", by which Python means precompiled packages (many of which are certain to not work on my machine because half these goddamn things link against libs for systemd, which was open about having the specific mission of creating vendor lock-in for RedHat, which company is now basically dead but its zombie code continues to ruin the earth) and half these dipshits don't even publish the source so you can only pip install the binary. I manually built and installed three or four of the packages and then one of them wouldn't build and I gave up. The juice is not worth the squeeze.
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 14:42:00 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     @NEETzsche @lanodan I think `$language_specific_package_manager install $package` is the type of thing that causes that. There is something about typing in a version number and releasing a tarball with a Changelog that forces people to think about what they are doing.
   • Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell: (lanodan@queer.hacktivis.me)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 14:42:00 JST Haelwenn /элвэн/ :triskell:

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero

     @p @NEETzsche Tarball? With a Changelog?
     Just $lang_pkg publish at some random commit point, what do you mean you want it's exact Source Code?

     (Of all the things to not enforce with the git integrations pretty much all those things have…)

   • NEETzsche (neetzsche@iddqd.social)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 14:42:01 JST NEETzsche

     in reply to

     • pistolero
     @p I kind of want to attribute it to better versioning, but your explanation might make more sense. I had a few experiences where a Python library didn't change, but it relied on some C++ library that did, and the package manager that the Python library use didn't specify which version of the C++ library to get like it's done in `Gemfile.lock` or `requirements.txt`. But that's just an anecdote and the details of it escape me because it was like 7 years ago now.
     
     @lanodan
   •  (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 14:42:24 JST 

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @lanodan >half these goddamn things link against libs for systemd
     Literally never seen this, and I've used shit like Stable Diffusion (that downloads 5 gigs of pip dependencies) quite extensively. I could understand if you mentioned not having prebuild packages for SPARC or musl or something, but I have my doubts something there would link against systemd unless it's explicitly related to service management.
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:10:02 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     @mint @NEETzsche @lanodan
     
     > Literally never seen this,
     
     I had to use a chroot to build out CRUX for the DevTerm because it is apparently nearly impossible to keep systemd from getting linked into everything. Forget X11, it's hard to get a non-graphical userspace without DBus worming its way in. These things are why I have concluded that the only sane option is to fuck off to Plan 9 and use Linux the way a person used Windows in the aughts: here's the filthy thing you have to have because too much shit doesn't work outside it, so just contain all the fluoride in one area. But I am still not going to run unknown binaries on my desktop machine.
     
     > SPARC or musl or something,
     
     lanodan would be the resident musl expert; I have some SPARC machines but they're all off.
      and † top dog :pedomustdie: like this.
   •  (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:41:28 JST 

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @lanodan I'd still like to know the names of shell packages that link against systems for no reason, if nothing else to know which devs to bully.
     >I have some SPARC machines but they're all off.
     @PurpCat hosted an instance on SPARC machine for a while, which later inspired me to get pleromer running on Hurd (rip chode.pics, suspended mere days after registration) and Haiku when I had nothing to do.
   • ​ (syzygy@pl.absolutelyproprietary.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:44:12 JST ​

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     • pistolero
     @mint @PurpCat @p @NEETzsche @lanodan
     chode.pics still sort of exists as a completely munted hidden service
      likes this.
   •  (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 19:45:29 JST 

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     • pistolero
     @p @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan s/systems/systemd/
     I plead guilty of phoneposting.
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:13:42 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     @mint @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan
     
     > I plead guilty of phoneposting.
     
     Don't plead guilty to that, you wanna take that to ecourt. Anyone found guilty is sentenced to execution by viagra.
     spam-viagra-after-execution.png
      likes this.
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:13:51 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     @mint @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan
     
     > I'd still like to know the names of shell packages that link against systems for no reason, if nothing else to know which devs to bully.
     
     I get far enough down the rabbit hole to find the rabbit shit and I don't usually remember what I passed on the way down, I just start cursing and then pouring cement into the hole. (In this case, the cement was putting a clean userspace into a chroot.)
     
     > (rip chode.pics, suspended mere days after registration)
     
     seriously
     
     Why would they suspend it?
     
     > and Haiku
     
     That one was impressive.
      likes this.
   •  (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Tuesday, 24-Sep-2024 21:20:09 JST 

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     • pistolero
     @p @PurpCat @NEETzsche @lanodan Did I also write "shell" instead of "wheel"? Guhdangit.
     >That one was impressive.
     I think I spent more time with Hurd one, plus you claimed Haiku "is almost just another DE".
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:12:08 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     @mint @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan Oh, Python wheels. I don't know, as soon as I saw "x86_64" in a thing it was downloading I rm'd the thing and ran around figuring out what it was and it was "wheels" and I disabled them.
      likes this.
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:12:20 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     • pistolero
     @mint @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan
     
     Premature post.
     
     > I think I spent more time with Hurd one, plus you claimed Haiku "is almost just another DE".
     
     Yeah, I mean, it keeps being more true than I expect.
      likes this.
   • this ad CAN be blocked, bitch (kirby@lab.nyanide.com)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:12:27 JST this ad CAN be blocked, bitch

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Pawlicker
     • pistolero
     @p @PurpCat @NEETzsche @lanodan @mint >Why would they suspend it
     
     idk i never got an answer. was just suspended out of nowhere like a day after i bought it and porkbun never responded to my support ticket asking what happened :cry: :cryAqua:
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:12:30 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • this ad CAN be blocked, bitch
     • Pawlicker
     @kirby @NEETzsche @PurpCat @lanodan @mint Porkbun didn't last long before they got fully fluoridated.
   •  (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:16:14 JST 

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Himbo Techbro
     • pistolero
     • feld
     @feld @p @NEETzsche @r000t @lanodan It appears Arch/Artix do that as well.
   • feld (feld@friedcheese.us)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:16:15 JST feld

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Himbo Techbro
     • pistolero
     @r000t @p @NEETzsche @lanodan Debian removed support for installing any Python packages system-wide with pip. It needs to be in the Debian package repo or go make a virtual env. Python has a PEP for this and Fedora is going to do it too.
     
     https://peps.python.org/pep-0668/
     
     
     Why?
     
     
     Because on Linux so many things including the package manager use Python, and pip can literally break them.
   • Himbo Techbro (r000t@ligma.pro)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:16:16 JST Himbo Techbro

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • pistolero

     @p
     When I started using Python in 2008, your app ran everywhere Python did. Period. Any Linux distro, every weird niche OS, OS X, even Windows after installing a single msi.

     It also meant that your app could be very small and easy to distribute.

     Now, every fucking Python application, no matter how small, basically has to install an entire "distribution" of Python, kept entirely separate from the rest of the system, if for no other reason than there's massive breaking changes every version, they've committed themselves to a new version every two years (I believe), and so you can only use the system Python if you're willing to use a very, *very* narrow window of systems and release versions.

     This is the direct result of no longer being able to tell people "No, fuck off" in online spaces without getting targeted and harassed on social media, oddly enough by the people who claim to be against harassment.
     @NEETzsche @lanodan

   •  (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:24:46 JST 

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Himbo Techbro
     • pistolero
     • feld
     @p @feld @NEETzsche @r000t @lanodan >Anyway, my package manager is written in C
     I mean, it also is about not messing with the files provided by the packages installed by the package manager. Letting both it and pip dangle in the same namespace would eventually result in the same mess as when you install a bunch of software with ./configure && make && make install.
     >It's a good idea to keep a statically linked busybox everywhere you can.
     Had this shit happen when updating old Gentoo install a while ago. Python (and thus emerge) weren't broken but coreutils and tar were due to some glibc conflict. Had to remove a bunch of binaries in /bin and replace them with symlinks to busybox which surprisingly worked and let me fix essential packages.
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 00:24:47 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Himbo Techbro
     • feld
     @feld @r000t @NEETzsche @lanodan It used to be possible to have multiple versions of a library installed.
     
     (Anyway, my package manager is written in C and it's just tarballs anyway, so the worst-case scenario is I can fix it with a statically linked busybox. It's a good idea to keep a statically linked busybox everywhere you can.)
   • pistolero (p@fsebugoutzone.org)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 01:06:47 JST pistolero

     in reply to

     • 
     • NEETzsche
     • Himbo Techbro
     • feld
     @mint @NEETzsche @feld @lanodan @r000t I just make /bbbin and shove the symlinks into there and then put that ahead in the path, or you can set a compile-time option to tell the shell to use its own builtins wherever possible instead of checking $PATH and it saves a lot of typing.
      likes this.
   •  (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Wednesday, 25-Sep-2024 02:22:37 JST 

     in reply to

     • NEETzsche
     • Himbo Techbro
     • pistolero
     • feld
     @p @feld @NEETzsche @r000t @lanodan I think I've tried putting them in some other dir in PATH, but emerge didn't pick it up for whatever reason.