Conversation

Notices

1. cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:26:31 JST cool_boy_mew
   Interesting thought experiment about "easy modes" I'm testing right now:
   
   "What's the problem with less skilled players playing normal modes and having difficulties, don't they end up having MORE game in the end?"
   
   One of the only response you can have against this is "I don't have that time" which is just "bitch, if you don't have time do something else"
   • Berkeley Berkman (berkberkman@bae.st)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:29:00 JST Berkeley Berkman

     in reply to
     @coolboymew "You could just watch a YouTube walkthrough or a longplay with no commentary if you don't have time."
     cool_boy_mew likes this.
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:29:48 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Berkeley Berkman
     @berkberkman basically at this point
     
     I already covered the movie vs interactive medium thing in an earlier comment. Why are you playing an interactive medium if you don't want to interact with it?
   • Christi Junior (christijunior@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:34:26 JST Christi Junior

     in reply to

     • Berkeley Berkman
     @coolboymew @berkberkman Taking an L in a game is annoying at the time, but it will (or at least should) lead you to changing up the way you play and maybe even explore mechanics you were until now neglecting, resulting in a game experience that's richer and more satisfying long term. Well-designed difficulty spikes act as skill checks and organically curb bad gameplay habits.
     cool_boy_mew likes this.
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:36:07 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Christi Junior
     • Berkeley Berkman
     @ChristiJunior @berkberkman yeah
     
     Then they could probably argue something like "But what if I want an easy playthrough" then I can go back to the movie example or something and say "If I wanted an easygoing movie I'd go with an adam sandler movie instead of Eraserhead. But I'm not owed an explanation of it either from it, but I can look for one online (Online walkthrough for games and yadda yadda)
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:39:45 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Christi Junior
     • Berkeley Berkman
     @ChristiJunior @berkberkman in the end, people defending easy modes are virtue signaling dipshits arguing for an hypothetical person they don't even know themselves
   • Christi Junior (christijunior@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:43:18 JST Christi Junior

     in reply to

     • Berkeley Berkman
     @coolboymew @berkberkman Think about how much less handholdy and more willing to kick the player's ass a game like Pokemon Red/Blue is compared to Pokemon Sword/Shield, and yet the former is the best-selling Pokemon game of all time and became a global phenomenon. Games don't need to be dumbed down and braindead to be "accessible", they just need to be fun and well-designed.
     cool_boy_mew likes this.
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:44:07 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Christi Junior
     • Berkeley Berkman
     @ChristiJunior @berkberkman also keep in mind I finished SMRPG, Red/Blue AND the stupid banjo-kazooie quiz as a game WITHOUT any English reading ability
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:45:34 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Christi Junior
     • Berkeley Berkman
     @ChristiJunior @berkberkman SMRPG lasted me months to even a year or so, not being able to read was hell lmao. I was level 30 in the fucking sunken ship because I couldn't do the code until a babysitter did it lmao
     
     But despite of that I actually loved the game. Hell, it might be in my top 5 of all times exactly because it stuck with me for so long
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:46:33 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Christi Junior
     • Berkeley Berkman
     • DrScarGazer
     @DrScarGazer @berkberkman @ChristiJunior what do you mean by that? Length doesn't affect much in the argument
     
     Altho', see my latest post in the thread for something about length
   • DrScarGazer (drscargazer@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:46:34 JST DrScarGazer

     in reply to

     • Christi Junior
     • Berkeley Berkman
     @coolboymew @berkberkman @ChristiJunior What about games that're quick anyway?
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:59:11 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Christi Junior
     • Berkeley Berkman
     • DrScarGazer
     @DrScarGazer @berkberkman @ChristiJunior oh yeah, that's a given for arcadey experience, puzzle games (Tetris attack and the likes) and such, it serves as a tutorial of some sort
     
     But more longer stuff, like JRPG and other action game it's... eh? It's ridiculous for what is basically the easiest JRPG (SMRPG is what I'm arguing all of this about) but JRPG already have a contingency mechanism built in: Grinding. If you REALLY wanted, you could be level 30 (max) in the first area of the game
   • DrScarGazer (drscargazer@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 12:59:12 JST DrScarGazer

     in reply to

     • Christi Junior
     • Berkeley Berkman
     @coolboymew @berkberkman @ChristiJunior Easy can serve it's purpose for more arcade style games or certain roguelites. Easy is often a shorter playthrough in such games as well.
     It's Easy Mode because you load it up to get a grasp of the basics before moving on. Maybe not if you're familiar with the genre.
     I think most of the hate on easy modes these days stems from all the unskippable tutorials, it's inclusion inappropriate genres, and mutant offspring super easy modes.
     cool_boy_mew likes this.
   • 獣耳会社ｗａｎ (wan@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:26:55 JST 獣耳会社ｗａｎ

     in reply to
     @coolboymew The main use I see is in games that include different types of play that do not depend on each other, where a given player finds some types of play satisfying and others unsatisfying. There's no such thing as a game for everyone, so adjusting difficulty in these cases allows different players to get what they want.
     
     The usual example is a player who might enjoy the interactive exploration of an open world but not care for, say, a third-person shooter component. Keeping the shooter component difficult does not offer that player any reward for mastery because they are not interested in it in the first place. To them, it is merely an obstacle in the way of what they're really there for.
     
     The opposite applies in the case of a player who really likes the way the game does third-person shootery; they're practiced and skilled in it and want to be pushed, so turning the difficulty up adjusts the game to the point where they feel challenged.
     
     The argument can also be inverted: Why should ordinarily skilled players not play on the hardest difficulty available, since they too will end up having more game? Why should XCOM not always be played in Iron Man mode on hardest difficulty, and the Touhou series not always played on Lunatic?
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:26:55 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • 獣耳会社ｗａｎ
     @wan
     
     >There's no such thing as a game for everyone, so adjusting difficulty in these cases allows different players to get what they want.
     
     Completely disagree
     
     Are you owed a Monopoly game win and any particular board game for the matter? What about Solitaire, Freecell, etc? This is an extremely strange argument. If I'm tired of banging my head against a particular game in a genre I'm weak at, I take the L and go do something else. That is the entire point of a game
     
     > There's no such thing as a game for everyone, so adjusting difficulty in these cases allows different players to get what they want.
     
     The problem is that it goes one way only usually and easy modes are usually extremely hand holding modes to the level of not playing the game. Remember this whole argument is mostly about SMRPG which is the easiest JRPG around that got an easy mode
     
     >The usual example is a player who might enjoy the interactive exploration of an open world but not care for, say, a third-person shooter component. Keeping the shooter component difficult does not offer that player any reward for mastery because they are not interested in it in the first place. To them, it is merely an obstacle in the way of what they're really there for.
     
     I covered this in the thread
     
     "I can go back to the movie example or something and say "If I wanted an easygoing movie I'd go with an adam sandler movie instead of Eraserhead. But I'm not owed an explanation of it either from it, but I can look for one online (Online walkthrough for games and yadda yadda)"
     
     Either way, if you hate shooting games, you don't grab an open world game with shooting in it like you don't watch Eraserhead if you don't like these "symbolism" movies
     
     >The opposite applies in the case of a player who really likes the way the game does third-person shootery; they're practiced and skilled in it and want to be pushed, so turning the difficulty up adjusts the game to the point where they feel challenged.
     
     The entire problem is that it's not an option in a lot of games. Also nowadays, normal is easy mode, hard mode is normal mode, and usually any other mode there is is unlocked after the game is cleared because if it's there, it's meant to be a mode for people who cleared the game already and knows everything about it
     
     >The argument can also be inverted: Why should ordinarily skilled players not play on the hardest difficulty available, since they too will end up having more game? Why should XCOM not always be played in Iron Man mode on hardest difficulty, and the Touhou series not always played on Lunatic?
     
     Not really, the argument makes no sense the other way around
   • Himbo Techbro (r000t@ligma.pro)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:27:01 JST Himbo Techbro

     in reply to

     @coolboymew
     Oh, right.

     Anyway, these are my weight machines. They start out at 180lb. Why the fuck would you even lift if you aren't going to lift at least 180lb?

     Work your way up to it and develop the skill? The fuck are you, some sort of casual?

     cool_boy_mew likes this.
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:27:25 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Himbo Techbro
     @r000t usually the response to this is "I don't have time to build up my skill" which the correct response is "do something else"
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:35:13 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Himbo Techbro
     @r000t No, I meant the response of the people who don't actually want to build up their skill is that they don't have time
   • Himbo Techbro (r000t@ligma.pro)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:35:14 JST Himbo Techbro

     in reply to

     @coolboymew
     I'm not sure I'm following correctly, you're of the opinion that the 30lb option shouldn't exist, yes?

   • Weeble (weeble@bungle.online)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:36:37 JST Weeble

     in reply to

     @coolboymew@shitposter.club If DSP beat it then it doesn't need an easy mode. That's my bar

     cool_boy_mew likes this.
   • Arkana (arkana@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:36:54 JST Arkana

     in reply to

     • Himbo Techbro
     @r000t @coolboymew If somebody wants an easy game then they can get an easier game. As kids most people had many games they could not complete, that's normal.
     
     If a kid is learning math, when they start to struggle on a question you don't immediately give them the answer. If you do, then they will not learn properly. They will rely on you giving them answers. There is such a thing as a weight that is too light to train with.
     cool_boy_mew likes this.
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:39:08 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Himbo Techbro
     • Arkana
     @Arkana @r000t yes
     
     The counter answer to this I've seen is basically "kids don't have the attention span, they have 100000 things and free games attempting to fight for their attention" and it's a really bad answer
     
     Which then leads us to kids not being raised properly by parents and being given ipads and basically playing skinnerboxes at their age and this is basically fucking us badly beyond video games
   • Arkana (arkana@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:42:11 JST Arkana

     in reply to

     • Himbo Techbro
     @coolboymew @r000t I was playing Kingdom Hearts 1 and just thinking about this. As a kid I barely had any games to play. If I wanted to try out a new game I had to spend $7 and rent a new one for a week. Now I have countless games at my fingertips that it's hard to choose sometimes
     There are tons of games that if I played as a kid I would have loved, but just never had the chance. So I stuck with many of the same games I enjoyed a lot
     cool_boy_mew likes this.
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:43:12 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Himbo Techbro
     • Arkana
     @Arkana @r000t If you check the thread I have a crazy story about SMRPG. I'm ESL, it took me a long fucking while to beat because I couldn't read it
     
     But I still managed it (with a minimum of help for the sunken ship puzzle), also pokemon and the banjo-kazooie quiz
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:44:51 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • Himbo Techbro
     • Arkana
     @Arkana @r000t I'll also add that videogames apparently help hand eye coordination, problem solving and etc
     
     But there's probably none of these positive effects for extremely hand holding mode that's being played because kids are used to constant skinnerboxes
   • 獣耳会社ｗａｎ (wan@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:48:36 JST 獣耳会社ｗａｎ

     in reply to
     @coolboymew It's less about (not) being "owed" something – a framing that makes sense only from the perspective of a consumer – and more about what the maker chooses to provide, how, to whom, and why.
     cool_boy_mew likes this.
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 13:50:18 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • 獣耳会社ｗａｎ
     @wan the why has been talked about in the thread just now
     
     A lot of the why is because of kids being fed constant skinnerboxes that's REALLY fucking us over beyond video games
     
     Video games has advantages in that it helps hand eye coordination and problem solving, but these "no thinking" modes probably ain't giving anyone any benefits
   • cool_boy_mew (coolboymew@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 14:08:11 JST cool_boy_mew

     in reply to

     • 獣耳会社ｗａｎ
     @wan I'd say that my NES multicart curiosity as a very young kid, me just being curious about how the mechanism of most games worked and then later having to bang my head against the wall on a lot of games because ESL REALLY helped my problem solving skill and overall curiosity, which was definitively above average
     
     But in the end it's really an additional argument to the real culprit of games getting easier (and not hard) is that kids have infinite access to shitty skinnerboxes
     
     There was a time during the NES that they had a special rating for games for how hard they were (it was a positive). Crazy how things changed
   • 獣耳会社ｗａｎ (wan@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 14:08:12 JST 獣耳会社ｗａｎ

     in reply to
     @coolboymew It used to be that when you heard someone start with "video games help hand-eye coordination", it signaled that they were trying to classify them as something didactic, so that the games could then be judged on what they "taught" or "trained" – which meant you were about to hear about the effects of the lurid violence they invited the player to "participate" in.
     
     If you believe that the purpose and value of video games is in their training of hand-eye coordination, problem solving, or other "skills", then adjustable difficulties would indeed be a terrible blow to their usefulness.
   • 獣耳会社ｗａｎ (wan@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 28-Dec-2023 14:15:31 JST 獣耳会社ｗａｎ

     in reply to
     @coolboymew It might be useful to consider how different players choose to bang their heads against different types of game, mechanic groups, or types of play, versus ones they could but choose not to, or do but then regret.
     cool_boy_mew likes this.
   • Rudolf_von_Goldenbaum (rudolf_von_goldenbaum@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 29-Dec-2023 01:06:02 JST Rudolf_von_Goldenbaum

     in reply to
     @coolboymew In outlier games like Xcom 2 and Mount and Blade: Warband, "easy" is useful because its about as hard as "normal" in most games. I definitely wouldn't have played them without having the option.
     cool_boy_mew likes this.
   • sj_zero (sj_zero@social.fbxl.net)'s status on Friday, 29-Dec-2023 01:06:57 JST sj_zero

     in reply to
     You can remove easy mode if you want, but I'm gonna cheatengine myself over 9000 in all my stats because I'm old and bad at video games and want to pretend I finished a game despite only having 5 minutes at a time.