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James P. :arch_linux: :firefox: :sway: :xfce: (james@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 09:59:32 JST James P. :arch_linux: :firefox: :sway: :xfce:
- R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
@RL_Dane It's sad that a lot of websites require JS to function nowadays. Even though Gmail has a view without JavaScript, they made it harder to install 3rd party clients (less secure ones, you have to use OAuth2) and you still have to log into Google over the web. And they require the latest browser to work, which requires you to use one of the big browsers. If you're not using Firefox or Safari, you're stuck on Chrome. Without JavaScript, we'd be a lot more free.

In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 09:59:32 JST from mstdn.starnix.network permalink
- Adrian Cochrane repeated this.
- R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 09:59:31 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  in reply to
  
  @james
  Totally agreed.
  JS has gone from being a little bit of sugar to spice up a website with to a horrid, bloated, abusive application delivery framework. Hate it. :P
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 09:59:31 JST permalink
  
  Adrian Cochrane repeated this.
- Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:07 JST Adrian Cochrane
  in reply to
  @RL_Dane @colinsmatt11 @doctormo @james The story as I understand it is that WASM is a bit too low-level for most of the web APIs, so you need to write some JS to shuttle WASM's I/O to something human-legible.
  I don't know how it'll evolve in the future.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:07 JST permalink
- MattZ (colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:08 JST MattZ
  in reply to
  - R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  - Abandoned
  @james @doctormo @RL_Dane I absolutely despise Webassembly way more than javascript.
  
  It's the worst aspects of javascript given to much resources to exploit.
  
  You can control certain aspects of javascript because it's script, you can block execution, skip parts of it, etc.
  Webassembly is just a bloated binary blob, there's no other option than to block it, from what I can see.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:08 JST permalink
- R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:08 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  in reply to
  - Abandoned
  - MattZ
  @colinsmatt11 @doctormo @james
  Supposedly (I'm afraid I can't recall with whom I was discussing this), WASM is a little better sandboxed than JS, and has less access to things within the browser, but it's still a binary, and it still gets near-native execution speeds. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.
  It could be a great technology when you WANT to run 3rd party code, but getting code hurled at you from random websites that can use up CPU resources is a bleeding horrid idea.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:08 JST permalink
  
  Adrian Cochrane repeated this.
- James P. :arch_linux: :firefox: :sway: :xfce: (james@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:09 JST James P. :arch_linux: :firefox: :sway: :xfce:
  in reply to
  - R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  - Abandoned
  @doctormo @RL_Dane Yeah, I think the death of Flash and the transition to HTML5 might've accelerated this. Then WebAssembly comes along.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:09 JST permalink
- Abandoned (doctormo@fosstodon.org)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:10 JST Abandoned
  in reply to
  - R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  @RL_Dane @james
  Like crabs, all websites evolve into macromedia flash.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:10 JST permalink
- Abandoned (doctormo@fosstodon.org)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:56 JST Abandoned
  in reply to
  - R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  - MattZ
  @RL_Dane @colinsmatt11 @james
  We have a consent problem on the world wide web.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:05:56 JST permalink
- Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:07:31 JST Adrian Cochrane
  in reply to
  - R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  - Abandoned
  @james @doctormo @RL_Dane Did you know? Flash, the bogeyman, has been independently reimplemented in WASM!
  https://ruffle.rs
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:07:31 JST permalink
- Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:45:29 JST Adrian Cochrane
  in reply to
  @RL_Dane @colinsmatt11 @doctormo @james I'm guessing so...
  Personally I'd say if we are to have an app-web (which I really don't care about) I'd prefer if we end up exposing basic & raw I/O to WASM than build up inside the walls of the sandbox from there. As opposed to exposing more & more of the OS to JS.
  Then again I'd prefer the opcode being interpreted was functional rather than imperative, and a few other things.
  But really please keep this app junk out of the document web!
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:45:29 JST permalink
- R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:45:30 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  in reply to
  @alcinnz @colinsmatt11 @doctormo @james
  > I don't know how it'll evolve in the future.
  Like Godzilla? ;)
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 12:45:30 JST permalink
- R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:37:54 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  in reply to
  @alcinnz @colinsmatt11 @doctormo @james
  Yeah... The web was for documents. Even wikipedia is in a broad sense a silly obfuscation of the web's original mission: using html, databases, javascript to serve documents vs. just serving and editing html.
  Not saying it's WRONG -- I'd much rather edit something like markdown than even early html. It's just way better.
  ...
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:37:54 JST permalink
  
  Adrian Cochrane repeated this.
- R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:37:58 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  in reply to
  @alcinnz @colinsmatt11 @doctormo @james
  ...
  But remember when websites just consisted of some flat files and some perl scripts? You could have a simple cgi-bin that converts the source .md to html and serves it up, presto. Throw in some really basic CSS to make it prettier, and you've got something light, elegant, and usable.
  NAAAH! MOAR FRAMEWORKS!!!
  ...
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:37:58 JST permalink
  
  Adrian Cochrane repeated this.
- R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:38:01 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  in reply to
  @alcinnz @colinsmatt11 @doctormo @james
  ...
  (Take a look at the very first wiki for an idea of something that is very simple and elegant the way I was describing: https://wiki.c2.com/)
  Also, wikipedia article for the same: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiWikiWeb
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:38:01 JST permalink
  Attachments
  1. https://wiki.c2.com/
  2. WikiWikiWeb
    
    The WikiWikiWeb is the first wiki, or user-editable website. It was launched on 25 March 1995 by programmer Ward Cunningham to accompany the Portland Pattern Repository website discussing software design patterns. The name WikiWikiWeb originally also applied to the wiki software that operated the website, written in the Perl programming language and later renamed to "WikiBase". The site is frequently referred to by its users as simply "Wiki", and a convention established among users of the early network of wiki sites that followed was that using the word with a capitalized W referred exclusively to the original site. History The software and website were developed in 1994 by Cunningham in order to make the exchange of ideas between programmers easier. The concept was based on the ideas developed in HyperCard stacks that Cunningham built in the late 1980s. On March 25, 1995, he installed the software on his company's (Cunningham & Cunningham) website, c2.com. Cunningham came up with the name WikiWikiWeb...
- MattZ (colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:41:51 JST MattZ
  in reply to
  @RL_Dane @alcinnz @doctormo @james I think the best example for markdown being broken is multiple incompatible flavours.
  
  For example tables are still broken in many markdown viewers and editors.
  
  Some have highlighting, others don't, and the ones that do might not have the same syntax.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:41:51 JST permalink
- R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd: (rl_dane@fosstodon.org)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:41:53 JST R. L. Dane :debian: :openbsd:
  in reply to
  @colinsmatt11 @alcinnz @doctormo @james
  Really? I always thought markdown was a very elegant and simple format, at least for basic notes and markup.
  To me, it's basically just a distilled and clarified form of several 2000s wiki syntaxes, particularly WikkaWiki (sadly defunct) and old-school #TiddlyWiki (still going strong!).
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:41:53 JST permalink
- MattZ (colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:41:54 JST MattZ
  in reply to
  @RL_Dane @alcinnz @doctormo @james Markdown is horrible format if you want things to be extendable.
  
  And the things markdown does are only marginally better than plain text.
  
  I agree that editing html (or any XML-like document) is equivalent to walking on glass shards. But markdown is certainly not the solution.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:41:54 JST permalink
- MattZ (colinsmatt11@gleasonator.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:42:24 JST MattZ
  in reply to
  @RL_Dane @alcinnz @doctormo @james I believe Apache APT is better than markdown. But it's not extendable but it's not trying to be unlike markdown.
  
  In conversation Sunday, 29-Jan-2023 14:42:24 JST permalink

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