Conversation
Notices
-
@Iffine @Suzu i think its gonna be like borderlands system, where enemeis are roughly matched to your level. There are "Badass" enemies that are more aggressive/tankier.
CDPR probably is planning to do something similar.
-
My prediction is that CDPR will do the same thing that HelloGames did, and Cyberpunk 2077 will have a "redemption" story like No Man's Sky did. Maybe even the Internet Historian will also do a vídeo about it.
And my prediction is solely based in this small snippet of the 2.0 patch notes. Screw all the rest, the immersion, the equipment fix, them finally adding policie to the game, I don't care about any of that.
THIS is the change that shows that there is at least one person with more than 2 braincells in the studio:
There is absolutely no reason for an open world CRPG to limit your sprinting ability outside combat using a stamina system. And Starfield, with that shitty oxygen/CO2 system is even worse!
Using stamina to shoot weapons may be weird, but it may make sense in the in-game balancing, and is somewhat immersive (because, as anyone who did it before knows, shooting weapons can be pretty tiring, specially heavier stuff like shotguns and assault rifles).
-
@Suzu I'm really hoping this leads to something and more interest in cyberpunk, but another part of the patchnotes brings down the good of something like this. NPC changes as a whole seem fine enough, but level scaling on all enemies sounds horrid if done wrong. I'll have to see what this actually means, but having certain people be stronger than others fits much more naturally and adds a lot to the game and world compared to the artificial challenge of level scaling
-
@MordredSimp @Suzu Yeah that's the issue. Level scaling tends to make random aspects of the game tedious. I only have one game I've played where I really enjoyed the implementation of level scaling, being Rabi-Ribi. Bosses, and only bosses, level up as you gain more items, powers, etc. Due to the bullet hell aspect this means some bosses can have varying bullet patterns and such to spice up the fight, or scale it down to what your current loadout can handle. Made bosses feel like real big challenges, while you kept growing stronger to match their overall power.
But then even that game's level scaling can be annoying, as late game bosses are always designed as such so that even their earlier patterns can be annoying. Also it partially does the usual thing most game designers do of multiplying enemy health and damage by your level, thankfully not to too annoying an amount.
-
@Iffine @MordredSimp biggest problem I've seen with Rabi Ribi is that their kind of scaling makes it so that there is an "optimal route" for doing the bosses, because some of them get super bullshit when you meet them at higher levels.
I had a similar problem with a game called Nexomon: Extinction, which is a prety cool Pokémon-like game that is "open world" and you can fight the gyms in any order you want to, the gyms scale as you beat them.
It's been years since I've played it, but I was essentially soft locked because the gym I left for last had such a bullshit scaling that I would need to grind for hundreds of hours to beat it.
It seems there were some patches fixing scaling problems in the game since them, and also some new content, so I'll try it again, it's a pretty cool game.
-
@Iffine @Suzu Level Scaling always feels off and a bit bullshit sometimes, yeah whatever this Goblin who should take like a single hit from my sword and be bisected if taking 30 hits and isn't dying
-
@Iffine what I did understand from that part is that you are relatively "safe" to go anywhere in the city, and there won't be "level-locks" anymore (i.e.: you won't be completely murderized by opponents 20 levels over you because you made a wrong turn), but there will still be enemies that are more dangerous than the others (they mention enemies will have different tiers).
-
@Suzu :cirno_think: A fair thought, and I do hope so. Just worry because a lot of game devs fuck level scaling far too much by giving it to everyone and everything, and never really scaling relative to what an enemy should be (ie. a thug in an alley who has no affiliation or money should be fairly weak in most cases). I'll probably think about checking the game out myself to see it all once the DLC drops (and possibly doing more with it if modding ever picks up). Always enjoyed the worlds of cyberpunk settings, so it'd be nice if this update adds some of the cyberpunk feel to the game that it never seemed to have before in gameplay.
-
@lolipunk3069 @Iffine @MordredSimp yes, I know. Another tool for "leveling up" in the TTRPG is getting money.
We talked about the Cyberpunk systems before, and how they fare against each other and against the CRPG.
The main problem is that what people were (and still are) expecting from the game is impossible with our current tech. There is no way to turn 2077 into a "sandbox immersive sim with a flourishing and vast story". There are limited resources for that, both manpower to design all this shit, and also computational, to run all this shit.
The story, as far as I'm concerned, is OK, you have a main story, you have some branching paths, you have side characters with their own missions and stories, it's a regular computer RPG. Baldur's Gate 3 has the same thing, and everyone is wetting their panties over it.
Many things, like controlling how much money and access to crazy stuff the players have to introduce a sense of pacing and constant, gradual evolution, or having the lifepath be way more important, are relatively easy to do in the TTRPG because you have a human DM controlling everything and tailoring the experience to the group. In a CRPG we don't have the same luxury, so it's way harder to introduce this stuff.
What I agree, and that I've mentioned many times before though, is that I really wanted the actual missions to be solvable in any way I wanted. They don't even need to branch the story even more or change too much stuff in the rewards, but I wanted, for instance, in a mission where I have to enter the offices of a corp to steal the MacGuffin, to have the option to enter guns blazing and kill everyone, or hack my way to it, or to finesse my way inside with conversation skills, or sneak inside, and to be able to complete the mission with any way I choose to do it. I'd even say "give me the option to bribe someone from the office to steal it for me", but that would just skip the mission. OK then, bribe security to make it easier for me to access the MacGuffin.
I miss this more than I miss "a vast branching story" or "having the lifepaths be more relevant".
As for the thing about cyberware, they changed the cyberware system to become more like the TTRPG. I have absolutely no idea what they were smoking and why they didn't make the system this way since day 1, but whatever.
And yes, they are calling it "Cyberware capacity", and not "Humanity", probably because it's easier for people to relate "Cyberware capacity" to "how many cybershit I can use" instead of going "Oh, yeah, Humanity is what I lose when I implant cyberware because the game is showing me the struggle and loss of humanity that happens when we become more machine than man".
Not to mention there are Twitter retards complaining that in the Cyberpunk TTRPG you lose humanity when you make modifications to your body (and there are also retards complaining about you losing Soul in Shadowrun for the same reason), because of troons and people with prosthetic limbs, so much that in Cyberpunk RED Mike Pondsmith had to add the caveat that changing your sex or using prosthetic limbs that you lost don't take away your humanity. And I'm pretty sure CDPR wanted to stay as far away form that drama as they can.
-
@Suzu @MordredSimp @Iffine The thing with Cyberpunk 2077 is that it's loosely based off of a tabletop game. [Cyberpunk 2020.] The 2.0 update did make a lot of changes that I like, to be honest. Though I'll need to play around with it more.
That said, with regards to the OG TTRPG, even factoring in the dicerolls it was clearly aiming toward an immersive sim type feel. In the OG tabletop game, once your attributes were set, those attributes were permanent, and the only way to increase the attributes was a) permanently, through cyberware, or b) temporarily, through drugs [at a cost].
In the TTRPG, you didn't really level up in a conventional way. Rather, you levelled up your skills and your reputation [which is not identical to, but is related to your career skill]. There were also options to slot in skill chips, which lets you "borrow" skills that you don't really have time to learn. [For example, a Japanese skill chip will help you speak and read Japanese. A kung fu skill chip will allow you to use kung fu. A Pilot AV skill chip will let you fly AVs.] The thing is, though, the skills are tied to the chips, so if the chip malfunctions, or is removed, then you can't really use those skills on the chip, since you don't actually have them.
And on that note, the limiting factor on how much cyberware could be crammed into your body was determined by your Empathy stat, which for each point is subdivided into 10 humanity points. The idea being that replacing flesh with metal will have a dehumanizing psychological effect, and that past a certain threshold, one will slowly start to go mad. Therapy and medication could help somewhat with counteracting the humanity loss [letting you rebuild and regain humanity points], but those cost money, and those expenses add up.
The new overhaul for 2077 is a step closer in the right direction, though there's only so much it can do when the main limiting factor in the game is the story, and only having a few branching paths, and very few options for factions to join. [And lifepath not making that much of a difference in the game outside of the introduction and 1 exclusive sidequest.]
-
@MordredSimp @Iffine but on the other hand, fixed levels also feel like bullshit, because "oh, so conveniently the enemies that are weak are all in my starting area, and they also conveniently slowly increase in level as I move forward and also increase in level, and also my enemies never evolve". Both systems work more or less the same way, the only difference is that with fixed levels, you become so powerful that starter enemies are just a nuisance.
I think the best way to solve this is to not make levels be about "haha numbers go higher", or at least reduce the scale that it happens. Many TTRPG systems manage to do that. In Shadow of the Demon Lord, for instance, a 9th level character is considerably more powerful than a 2nd level one, and has way more options in his sleeve, but the 2nd level character can still put a knife into his eye and kill him, because there is not as great of a disparity in hit points and damage potential as there is in D&D, for instance.
I think Dark Souls/Elden Ring do it relatively well as far as PC games go. You can complete any of the games without leveling up once, and, even if you level up, many enemies that don't scale with you will still be somewhat dangerous.
-
@Suzu @lolipunk3069 @Iffine @MordredSimp To be fair, losing humanity for limbs you already lost does make sense since you're still getting your arm mutilated even if there is less of it to mutilate. That plus just having just a cyberlimb isn't even that much of a humanity sink, it just sounds like them trying to fish for special bonuses for meeting diversity quotas
-
@Suzu
CDPR is filled with women
hello games is filled with sean murray
Ryu
Suzu :miku_happy:
Dunkag
Lover of the Rebellious Knight Mordred
lolipunk2069
supersid
:gura_sus: 1e+6 litres :flag_china:
All ０７６萌ＳＮＳ content and data are available under the