Aral Balkan
Thinking more people are going to engage with you on mainstream social media “because everyone’s there” is like thinking people at a stadium concert are there to listen to you. It‘s only true if you’re one of the ones on stage. Not so much when you’re huddled in the nosebleeds.
Forget the numbers. Forget about “going viral” (leave it to the psychopaths in Silicon Valley to make virus-like behaviour aspirational). Embrace the joy of interacting with one another on a human scale.
Aral Balkan
@yukinosaru You can’t export behaviours into that world. It’s a top-down, not bottom-up, world driven by venture capitalists chasing exponential growth and profits investing in the most extractive and exploitative means possible of obtaining them. It’s a corporate world of CEO kings where their word is law. That world is what it is. Not you nor anyone else can change it. It’s like asking factory farms to be kinder. They can’t. It’s their nature to be cruel. (All they can hope for is better PR.)
Daniel Yeo
@aral I totally hear what you're saying and agree wholeheartedly.
But as I reeducate my social media reflexes here, and revaluating my engagement on Twitter - I'm wondering whether it would be better to export new behaviours back into that world rather than turn away? Lots of internal conflict about this concept...
Aral Balkan
@MissingThePt I see what you did there :)
Missing The Point
@aral This post is really doing numbers, congrats!
Aral Balkan
@Irisherself I was as happy with a handful here in 2016. (And equally fine with leaving the 42K+ “followers” I had when I closed the hell-site account.) The number here ballooned up quite a bit during the migration. Was far less for the majority of the last six years.
In fact, I’d be very happy if Mastodon hid the numbers altogether. I think that would be a positive. I’ve already hidden by follower/following lists but I can’t hide the numbers.
iris ✿ sandwalker
@aral 😄 he says with 31k followers
Aral Balkan
@yukinosaru I mean, by all means if you want to infiltrate/sabotage that system, go for it. Sabotage is the only legitimate means of changing such a system from the inside (but I’m not necessarily convinced of its long-term effectiveness).
Personally, I prefer to create. To work on alternatives. To try and help build the kind of world I want to live in.
I’ve railed against that system long enough and let me tell you, it’s a soul-destroying affair. I still call it out but my focus is creating.
Daniel Yeo
@aral yes, I hear and see that. But sadly it's not going away. It is top down but it is we are also still the content. And in many ways its a mirror to the duality of mankind.
So the question I'm asking myself is to walk away, keep your hands clean and hope it dies. Or. Infiltrate, poison the data pool, switch the dynamic up?
Perhaps I'm just hopelessly naive here but is there no hope in the kinder human nature?
Elizabeth
@aral I love both Mastodon and Post for that reason. Meaningful interaction.
Aral Balkan
@avertexofmyown The difference between the two being that Post is part of the same-old Silicon Valley startup game that Twitter was too. (https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/28/post-news-twitter-alternative-a16z/)
We know how that game goes:
1. Look at this lovely free service we have that does just what it says on the tin and nothing more. (Twitter didn’t even have an algorithmic timeline at the start.)
2. Grow exponentially (the only way to kill such a startup is to not use it and avoid this step)
3. Exit (get sold to a larger corp or IPO)
Aral Balkan
iris ✿ sandwalker
@aral it wasn't a pick on you, I just had to giggle a bit :D I too left a large crowd behind at the bird place (did not redirect anyone), and even left another instance here which turned a bit foul... I agree the social aspect is about the connections you make, in the moment, and diversify your impressions and interactions... let's just all chat with each other and no one will feel left behind <3 :toot:
Aral Balkan
@flyswatter The irony is not lost on me :)
Accidental Resident (she/they)
@aral this post has gone the equivalent of fedi-viral!
Aral Balkan
@ligma Indeed. And yet it is four orders of magnitude smaller than the most popular accounts on Twitter and one that’s grown over six years here (or 16 years if you consider that some folks migrated over with me from there, where I had ~42K followers, slowly built up since 2006). To wit, celebrities who migrated over flew past such numbers here in a day or two. Again, we’re talking orders of magnitude difference. (And I’d be the first to support hiding follower counts altogether.)
Ligma Johnson
@aral nothing wrong with being small. Everyone has to start somewhere.
That said, you probably have one of the biggest accounts that I've seen on here.
Aral Balkan
@ligma Well I’ve kind of dedicated my life to “small” at this point :)
Ligma Johnson
@aral I wasn't complaining, I was just observing an interesting contrast.
Indeed, I find it rather admirable that despite having clearly one of the more popular accounts on this platform, you find the humility to care about the small.
The devil's in the details, or so they say, so perhaps we all really ought to pay more attention to those, to make sure he's got nowhere to hide.
Steven Bodzin bike & subscribe
@futurebird @aral yeah I have Twitter connections in Nigeria, iNaturalist connections in Australia, and Facebook connections in remote areas of Colombia and Peru. LinkedIn has let me connect with corporate leaders in Chile and El Salvador. Corporate social media is bad on many ways but it's also a miracle.
Maybe your job doesn't require constant global outreach. But don't preach at me about thinking small.
myrmepropagandist
At 4am in NYC I wake up to catch the early bus. When I'd look at twitter at that hour it was totally filled with all these students and scientists and nurses from Nigeria-- They are already at work and in class and taking about the news, papers, jokes. And I made friends that way too. I learned new things.
That's the power of a network with 100s of millions of people.
Steven Bodzin bike & subscribe
@futurebird @aral It's a lot like cars. I make structural critiques of cars and driving. But when I do drive, I keep a window open almost all the time. I almost never speed. I stop completely at stop signs and let pedestrians and bikers go first. It's possible to use a bad system conscientiously. And while I have biked across the USA and taken other long trips, I now have a job. So if I am going NYC-Montreal, I usually go by car.
Aral Balkan
@peter How about lots of small pools, all able to interact with each other but each owned and controlled by their own communities and not beholden to the arbitrary rules of (if history is any indication) the middle-aged white fascist and bigoted billionaire who owns the big pool?
Peter Krupa
@stevenbodzin @futurebird @aral to build communities of marginalized people or perspectives, you need to start with a big pool.
Aral Balkan
@stevenbodzin No one’s preaching at you, Steven. You’re doing the online equivalent of coming into my home (my mentions, on my instance) and telling me to shut up.
I can speak my mind on my own fediverse instance as I like. If you don’t want to hear what I’ve got to say, don’t follow me, mute me, block me, or block my whole instance if that makes you feel better.
The day I come into your mentions and start telling you what you can or cannot do then you can accuse me of preaching.
akareilly
@aral @peter @stevenbodzin @futurebird sometimes, a large network is the goal of bad people.
That doesn’t mean it can’t be the goal of good people.
We don’t fight the white fascists by being condescending to Black activists.
Aral Balkan
@akareilly So you’re accusing me of “being condescending to Black activists” because I find quote tweets toxic? Can you please not? Seriously. Please stop trying to paint people in the worst light and win points by any means possible.
Aral Balkan
@peter I don’t disagree. The last thing we need are a bunch of smaller Mark Zuckerbergs running around. But that can be different if people from the communities themselves are running those servers (as we’re seeing happen in parts of the fediverse). Longer term, though, there’s a reason I’m working on the Small Web where (hopefully) we’ll all have our own individual places and have the tools to engage with our various communities directly. (https://ar.al/2020/08/07/what-is-the-small-web/)
Peter Krupa
@stevenbodzin @aral @futurebird lol none taken, I am The Worst.
Steven Bodzin bike & subscribe
@aral @peter @futurebird obviously we like this! It's why we're here. But it's also possible to be aware of the limitations.
In most human endeavors where centralization is advantageous, we have come up with regulatory systems or public ownership. I still find it sad that the Internet itself was privatized rather than handed to national postal systems.
But there will always be rules, and rulers, and the people who run small organizations are often worse than the big guys. No offense Peter
akareilly
@aral @peter @stevenbodzin @futurebird
I’m addressing a trend in open source communities to ignore what people want and need in the name in the name of building non-commercial networks. This makes trying to participate in open source projects unbearable.
“virus-like behaviour aspirational”
Going viral includes activism that makes a real difference on a human scale.
Going viral is sharing ways to stay alive.
Going viral is putting politicians on notice.
I am urging you to listen.
Aral Balkan
@akareilly The assumption being (from someone who doesn’t know me) that I do not listen (thanks).
We do not have to adopt the language and practices of Silicon Valley. I refuse to do so and I’m working on alternatives to the centralised systems by which the oligarchs who run that system perpetuate their power and influence.
We do not have to “go viral” to achieve any of those things. We need to reach people, yes. We can do it on our own terms, not theirs.
Aral Balkan
@akareilly Also, apologies, I thought your initial response was to my thread on quote tweets. Didn’t realise it was on this thread about the advantages of small communities and interacting on a human scale.
That said, I’m even more shocked now that I realise what you were accusing me with for what is essentially what I’m working to create which is a web where everyone owns and controls their own home so we can protect human rights.
Aral Balkan
@mnl OK, dude, congratulations, you’ve called me condescending. Now go away. Thank you.
mnml mnl (he/him)
@aral @akareilly @peter @stevenbodzin @futurebird what is condescending is preaching that large scale communication is all wanting to be a rockstar center stage.
Not only is wanting to be a rockstar center stage a totally valid goal, but it is missing a whole host of valid and empowering conceptions and uses of social media.
To use a soapbox to preach to others to not use a soapbox is weird.
Aral Balkan
@futurebird Indeed. I’m in no way refuting that. But it‘s also not what I‘m trying to invoke when I say “small technology.” By “small” I mean non-colonial technology that’s owned and controlled by individuals themselves (instead of being owned and controlled by tech oligarchs). I mean protecting individual sovereignty so we actually have the basis of creating a public sphere in which we are peers. (https://small-tech.org/about/#small-technology)
myrmepropagandist
@aral @akareilly @peter @stevenbodzin It’s an oversimplification to say “you don’t like QTs? must hate black people” — but there is a subtext
“small close knit communities” is a euphemism. When is it applied— when isn’t it?
A dress code “no baggy pants” is a filter— not caring about usability? *also* a filter. These debates aren’t about tech it’s about finding parity between desperate visions of the people and conversations that belong.
Aral Balkan
@akareilly It has problems with all those things, yes. And technology alone will not fix any of the problems we have either. To the best of my knowledge, I’ve never denied that either publicly or privately.
And the same applies to closed source (aka mainstream technology as we know it) too.
And to society in general.
akareilly
@aral @peter @stevenbodzin @futurebird
“I’m addressing a trend in open source communities” is right there.
Urging someone to listen is not the same as “you never listen” and yes, people with privilege in tech can always listen more.
You can also react by acknowledging that open source has problems with sexism, racism, ableism, and gender-based violence, so these conversations are rarely complete. This is why hostility to larger discussion groups needs to be examined.
Aral Balkan
@futurebird :)
(My only point is that we can’t win if we play by the rules of Silicon Valley. It’s their game. And the odds are always rigged to favour the house.)
myrmepropagandist
@aral @akareilly @peter @stevenbodzin So stop saying viral and start saying “blow up”
akareilly
@futurebird @aral @peter @stevenbodzin it would be one thing if the conferences, nonprofits, and informal groups creating open source software were more diverse, but many open source communities are overwhelmingly white, cis, and non-disabled, and the free time to code results from having few financial or caregiving responsibilities.
Hell, European open source communities struggle with welcoming cis white women, the lowest bar possible.
As it is, yes, open source advocates need to listen.
Aral Balkan
@akareilly It’s horrible, yes. And ‘open source‘ has nothing to do with social justice in any way. It’s simply ‘open’ as in ‘open for business.’
Free software has much more of a social angle in some ways but, if anything, is even more plagued by everything you just mentioned.
Neither address core social justice issues and end up perpetuating sexism, racism, etc.
But that doesn’t mean that we can’t do better than VC-funded Silicon Valley people farmers.
Aral Balkan
@mattmcirvin As a white-passing ex-Muslim Turkish guy who lives in Europe now, I try to listen and learn from the experiences of people all around the world, including those in the United States of America.
Matt McIrvin
@akareilly @futurebird @aral The discussion's been interesting to me: I have no strong opinions on the subject, and, coming in, found Eugen's reasons for opposing QTs at least plausible. But the strong advocacy for QTs from so many Black Mastodon users is a thing that took me completely by surprise--my white American experience is that when that happens, it doesn't necessarily mean I have to assume they're right, but it does mean I need to step back and consider that I missed something.
Aral Balkan
@futurebird It’s definitely not my intention for it to come across that way. I was just calling out the c.im server because they’re effectively policing public talk of racism, sexism, etc., on their server. Heck, I’m persona non grata in the web industry because of my politics :)
Yes, conflict is necessary. But I’m not convinced the gladiator arenas of private businesses that profit from conflict are what we should be praising or aiming to replicate.
myrmepropagandist
@aral @akareilly @peter @stevenbodzin The “small communities” are better idea is related to the idea that virality is bad, and that conflict is always bad.
I don’t think it’s your intention but it does sound like a call for controlled apolitical spaces. Can you see that?
Aral Balkan
@futurebird Which is exactly what the Twitter algorithm does.
If you have 100,000 people following you on Twitter and you post a tweet, does 1 person see it, 10, 100, 1,000 or 10,000?
Yes.
Could be any of those.
Depends on the algorithm. There might be hundreds of millions of people but the algorithm (which is a function of their business model, and, nowadays, Elon Musk’s whims) decides who you have access to.
Just like in WeChat.
myrmepropagandist
@rv @aral @akareilly @peter @BlackAzizAnansi @stevenbodzin I didn’t know about that— but it makes sense— no mass movements.
Rick Valenzuela :donor:
@futurebird @aral @akareilly @peter @BlackAzizAnansi @stevenbodzin ☝🏽 this is exactly the interpretation of the limits on the number of group chat members in China's most popular chat app, WeChat
Aral Balkan
@stevenbodzin No worries.
Steven Bodzin bike & subscribe
@aral @futurebird @akareilly got it. That's a good thing. I apologize for having read your post ungenerously.
Unclebrain
@aral @akareilly @peter @stevenbodzin @futurebird Can you show all of us.
Where you were accused of this?
I can’t find this anywhere.
Aral Balkan
@Unclebrain I guess replies aren‘t federating properly? https://mastodon.ar.al/@akareilly@mastodon.lol/109625173874557191
Aral Balkan
@futurebird The network is the whole size of the web. The difference is we own and control our own places on it (instead of renting it from Big Tech).
myrmepropagandist
@aral @akareilly @peter @stevenbodzin Small net tech; humongous tech network?
Aral Balkan
@rticks One VC-funded startup at a time 😬 👍
Rhombus Ticks
@aral @yukinosaru Um, that is totally wrong.
It has been changed and we will change it.
Aral Balkan
@maria That’s an excellent analogy :)
Maria Bustillos
'Going viral' on social media is like winning a slot machine jackpot...
It's designed to happen once in a while to keep you gambling--and eventually, lose your whole stake
Aral Balkan
@kagan Could that possibly be because of the “psychopaths in Silicon Valley” reference? Because if so, you’re welcome to be offended by it if you so choose.
Kagan MacTane
@aral You probably don't want to hear this, but I found your initial post kind of condescending as well. Please consider that your words may not be landing the way you intend them. @akareilly @peter @stevenbodzin @futurebird
Aral Balkan
@futurebird I think I helped mix the two topics up by thinking one of the previous replies was to my post on QTs and replying accordingly, sorry.
myrmepropagandist
@jonielena @akareilly @aral @peter @stevenbodzin
I don’t think QTs are as linked to virality as most seem to assume. Virality is an essential tool— One of the few ways to inject new ideas into the greater narrative. QTs are very useful, mostly used in positive or neutral ways and maligned for causing virality which isn’t even always bad and also probably isn’t happening.
joni elena
@futurebird @akareilly @aral @peter @stevenbodzin as someone who misses QTs for the humor, I agree they'd be a great feature! Why I'm working on a Hometown fork for a local network.
But I hesitate to say the QT is an impediment to activism because that would imply the tools at our disposal are the core problem when they... aren't. The root problems are systemic inequality and monopolization of resources. In that context, activism on a monopolized platform seems a 'master's tools' situation.
myrmepropagandist
@jonielena @akareilly @aral @peter @stevenbodzin Most that I’ve spoken to are pretty excited until they hear about the quote tweets then they’re like “really?? what’s that about?” and I try to explain the options and everything— but it’s been a speed bump multiple times because of what it might *imply*
joni elena
@akareilly @aral @peter @stevenbodzin @futurebird I also question the claim that virality on large-scale networks produces consistent, tangible results for activists. There were objectively successful viral campaigns, but I question whether they were (a) enough and (b) could've only happened at corporate scale.
I'm an interpreter/translator - extensive work with grassroots orgs in Colombia & Guatemala. Most activists I've met cite local radio - not social media - as their most effective tool.
joni elena
@akareilly @aral @peter @stevenbodzin @futurebird anyway, we ideally should hear from activists and orgs themselves on this issue. Most grassroots community organizers I've spoken with are very intrigued by the Fediverse - especially Abya Yala land defenders. They see it as an opportunity to replicate their community radio model, which has brought them better results than Twitter. But I don't speak for them - no one should. Too much speculation when we could just... ask.
joni elena
@akareilly when I first joined Mastodon, I agreed with this perspective. I don't anymore.
I'm autistic and have been a part of neurodiversity rights campaigns on and off Twitter. Our struggles rarely get attention outside neurodiversity and disability justice circles on Twitter. Because our concerns don't go viral.
Here, my posts get unprecedented engagement and concern - mostly from people outside the movement. It's been rather shocking, actually.
Aral Balkan
@Unclebrain I gave you a direct link to the post. Now go away.
Unclebrain
@aral @akareilly @peter @stevenbodzin @futurebird Did they say…”You are being condescending to black people?”
Where did they write this?
Was it done in invisible ink that only you see?
Melody Cooper
@aral AMEN. And there is incredible value in deeply interacting with 10 people who then interact with 10 others whether on social media or in real life, who then go on to share the seeds we plant. As the sister of the Central Park Birder and the one who posted the video that went viral to the tune of 50 million worldwide, I know the power and draw of going viral. But instead of creating one potted plant choked with viral roots, we can create groves that grow into healthy forests.
Aral Balkan
@MelodyCooper Because sometimes a favourite is just not enough, thought I’d just say out loud how much I love this sentiment.
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