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Alexandre Oliva (lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:04:52 JST 
Alexandre Oliva
these are unrelated questions. respecting your freedom doesn't entail preventing you from engaging in self harm. ideally, you'd have at least the senses to not harm others around you, but imposing that on you ahead of time so that you didn't have a choice would be like DRM.
now, software that takes control away from its users shouldn't even exist. when we get there, documentation on how to harm yourself by installing software that doesn't exist won't exist either, so it's not like having such documentation is necessary or desirable. but its inclusion shows where the includer stands: with the users, standing for their autonomy, or with those who wish to control the users through the software they use.
CC: @menherahair@eientei.org @phnt@fluffytail.org @Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com @Cyrillic@lab.nyanide.com @SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo- T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer) repeated this.
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Yomiel (yomiel@new.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 03:06:08 JST 
Yomiel
@lxo @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @Cyrillic @SuperDicq
You are ideological to the point of foolishness. A true double think; that you are more free because you can't install software. I have the freedom to easily install practically any software.
I choose only to run the free ones, of course, and block non-free from my system. But if I ever had to install support for say, RAR files, that it wouldn't be a massive pain the ass. I can quickly just edit my package.license file and selectively accept that license for just one package. I'm an adult, I'm capable of choosing what software I and don't install. Due to new users existing I recommend blocking non-free packages being installed by default, but having no documentation available because it's 'encouragement'? That's just plain dumb.
Especially the WIFI blobs restriction which makes every FSF recommended Distro impossible to use for anyone with a Laptop (or their computers in a room that makes it hard to access the Ethernet cable) -
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer) (theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 05:36:12 JST 
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer)
@yomiel @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @Cyrillic @SuperDicq @lxo
In almost all cases I see that most users dont really benefit much from free software other than getting shit for free, almost every typical computer user CANT:
- write code
- compile code
- package code
and most users dont understand
- the computer
- how the computer works
- how software lisences effect the end user
hell from the first 3 points most users gain nothing from free software because in of its own self it is a black box of black boxes that the user has NO idea how it works and has very little hope of beginning to understand what the hell the box does in the first place.
most users want their shit to work, not some gobbledygook ""freedom"" stuff on top, because to 99% of computer users, that stuff is meaningless.:gura_sus: 1e+6 litres :flag_china: likes this. -
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer) (theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 05:38:47 JST
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer)
@yomiel @Cyrillic @Suiseiseki @SuperDicq @lxo @menherahair @phnt
in effect, free software becomes more restricting because, lets face it, the only areas where theres significant man hours put into it is software that has some kind of direct developer benifit, or software that has had some kind of corporate backing. Because ultimately, to make anything happen, you need to fund it and community donations is never enough to keep a project with a development team of 1 -
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer) (theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 05:40:21 JST
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer)
@mischievoustomato @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @Cyrillic @SuperDicq @yomiel @lxo
i mean thats not really related to the point im postulating
the point im trying to make is that 90% of the benefits that free software gives, the average user *cannot* fundamentally understand because it needs literal years of learning to understand, let alone that it is impossible for a single person to maintain an operating system that works with *modern* requirements -
Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@tsundere.love)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 05:40:22 JST 
Johnny Peligro
@theorytoe @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @Cyrillic @SuperDicq @yomiel @lxo even people that can code could end up burned out eventually. There's a good number of programmers that went from linux to macOS. -
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer) (theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 05:44:50 JST
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer)
@Cyrillic @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @SuperDicq @yomiel @lxo @mischievoustomato
>not since Terry Davis died at least
again, you cant use templeos any sort of ""modern"" task that most computer users need to get done in current era -
Protoss (cyrillic@lab.nyanide.com)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 05:44:51 JST 
Protoss
@theorytoe @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @SuperDicq @yomiel @lxo @mischievoustomato not since Terry Davis died at least -
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer) (theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 05:47:28 JST
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer)
@gabi @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @Cyrillic @SuperDicq @yomiel @lxo
write an os from scratch with all the software needed to accomplish filing taxes and THEN come and talk about normies not caring about their freedom -
GNU/Gabi (gabi@freesoftwareextremist.com)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 05:47:29 JST 
GNU/Gabi
@theorytoe @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @Cyrillic @SuperDicq @yomiel @lxo
>Normie doesn't value their freedom
Chocolate for the news. -
Protoss (cyrillic@lab.nyanide.com)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 05:48:12 JST
Protoss
@theorytoe @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @SuperDicq @yomiel @lxo @mischievoustomato I'm thinking if templeos wasn't tainted by schizophrenia and such -
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer) (theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 05:50:11 JST
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer)
@Cyrillic @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @SuperDicq @yomiel @lxo @mischievoustomato
i mean even then, theres still a shitton of stuff you would have to re-implement from scratch in order to get something working
most hobby oses cant run reliably on bare metal because of how complex hardware in the modern era has become. Being able to write firmware that works well with that is a tall order, so much so that even free software implementations of such are struggling with that despite having an entire os to work with. -
Yomiel (yomiel@new.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 06:12:14 JST
Yomiel
@theorytoe @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @Cyrillic @SuperDicq @lxo
Highly disagree. EVERYONE benefits when software is free. If game technologies were completely free, they'd probably be more advanced by now. Non-free software is not just restrictive to the user, but stifles innovation and advancement. Free software is, without exception, free-er, safer and more secure. Usually only less advanced due to lacking the monetary backing of a company or state. -
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer) (theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 06:12:14 JST
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer)
@yomiel @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @Cyrillic @SuperDicq @lxo
collectively? Yes absolutely there would be benifit for everyone, but im talking about the individual case, especially in the context of hardware blobs -
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer) (theorytoe@ak.kyaruc.moe)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 06:12:52 JST
T man :sex: :puffgiga: :puffpowerroll: (epic music enjoyer)
@yomiel @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @Cyrillic @SuperDicq @lxo @mischievoustomato
the the primary arguing point should not be "it gives you freedoms" -
Yomiel (yomiel@new.asbestos.cafe)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 06:12:53 JST
Yomiel
@theorytoe @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @Cyrillic @SuperDicq @lxo @mischievoustomato
Who said free software was about self-sufficiency? Free software has ALWAYS been a collaborative effort. -
Johnny Peligro (mischievoustomato@tsundere.love)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 06:15:45 JST
Johnny Peligro
@lxo @yomiel @menherahair @phnt @Suiseiseki @Cyrillic @SuperDicq > however, if you try to spread ideas of self-harm to others, we will try to counter that by attempting to inform and to influence them just the same. it's not like it's your spreading of these ideas that requires us to act: there are more than enough pushers of user-harmful software out there already, so we've got plenty of work to do already. but it would be definitely nicer if, instead of making our job hardware, you'd help us by inviting users gently to climb the freedom ladder at their own pace instead of teaching them to disparage us, to conform and to be controlled like most everyone else.
i think it'd be easy to say that every single one of you has pushed people away from anything foss, lol -
Alexandre Oliva (lxo@snac.lx.oliva.nom.br)'s status on Tuesday, 18-Feb-2025 06:15:46 JST
Alexandre Oliva
IMHO the freedom arises out of knowing that the software is harmful and thus choosing to avoid it. assuming you'll get more freedom by progressively giving others control over your computing and thus over you is as foolish as assuming that selling at a loss will earn you profits out of volume.
the path to freedom, individual and collective, is to inform users so that they understand that others are trying to control them through the software they use, that the more they give up their freedom the harder it is to recover it and the easier it is for others to gain further control over their lives, and to avoid reinforcing the constant push that exploiters impose on users to go along the path that is most advantageous to them (the exploiters, not the users). only then, when these harmful pushes are canceled out, they (the users) can choose freely. before that, it's an illusion of choice, too distorted by harmful influences to be free.
but yeah, you're free to harm yourself by poor software choices, and nobody's telling you otherwise. informing you that, by doing certain foolish things, you're sacrificing your freedom does not amount to stopping you from harming yourself; not handing you the manuals or the programs that you could use to harm yourself, that we don't even have ourselves, doesn't either. we just know that self harm won't help you in the long run, and that exploiters take advantage of short-term thinking to progressively increase their control over their victims, so we warn against that and don't help you with that. but ultimately it's your choice, and if you're determined to pursue self-harm and hand others control over your life, we can't stop you: we have no power over you.
however, if you try to spread ideas of self-harm to others, we will try to counter that by attempting to inform and to influence them just the same. it's not like it's your spreading of these ideas that requires us to act: there are more than enough pushers of user-harmful software out there already, so we've got plenty of work to do already. but it would be definitely nicer if, instead of making our job hardware, you'd help us by inviting users gently to climb the freedom ladder at their own pace instead of teaching them to disparage us, to conform and to be controlled like most everyone else.
CC: @menherahair@eientei.org @phnt@fluffytail.org @Suiseiseki@freesoftwareextremist.com @Cyrillic@lab.nyanide.com @SuperDicq@minidisc.tokyo
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