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1. Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 07:05:39 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

   • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
   • Rayfield

   @Rayfield @Eiregoat Literally had this argument with that lady I was flying with. She spends all her time flying by staring down at her lap, watching the moving map. For the visual legs I just look outside, since that’s where the traffic is, but she’d get backseat drivery all the time. “uh I thought this leg was 320º”, then I’d point outside and show that I was following a valley to have a safer descent. The tech is nice but many have a tendency to just let the ipad fly the plane, they aren’t acting as a captain anymore.

   The more I fly with late-model pilots the more poor airmanship as a whole has become.

   • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad: (eiregoat@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 07:13:01 JST :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:

     in reply to

     • Rayfield
     I had to do that before but it was for instrument training. They tape up all the portholes and make you sit at the chart table yelling instructions to the helm. They don't let you use the gps though, that'd make it kind of easy.
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 07:13:44 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield

     @Eiregoat @Rayfield I like the saying that “a pilot without an instrument rating is only half an aviator” because it’s true. It’s a whole diff. game that requires a higher level of professionalism.

   • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad: (eiregoat@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 07:18:47 JST :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:

     in reply to

     • Rayfield
     I really enjoyed it, it was fun. There's a huge range of methods you can use to get the job done and they leave it up to you. My favorite story was about a guy doing his test near some cliffs and he ordered the helm to sound the foghorn, then used the echo to estimate his distance from the shore.
     
     I was boring and just used the depth sounder, log and a stopwatch.
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   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 07:22:29 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield

     @Eiregoat @Rayfield See, I want to do something like that. I have very little in the way of seamanship, have been meaning to get better at that. I like working with the old guys because they’re more grounded that way. I like paying attention to the geography and the landmarks, flying like they used to before all the tech.

     I can’t help but get the impression that too many of us would be utterly lost if every screen in the cockpit just died at the same time. You can point outside and ask people to find a mountain on their chart and they’ll be pinching their map, zooming in, staring into the distance, all while a little moving plane is RIGHT there. It’s like they’ve divorced the IRL outside from their map in their head

   • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad: (eiregoat@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 08:19:56 JST :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:

     in reply to

     • Rayfield
     I talked to an old school pilot and he used to do all the maritime navigation stuff. Like they'd have a little dome at the top of the cockpit so you could stick your head up with a sextant and take a sun sight. There's little pantograph chart tables you can get too to make quick plots. I think a bomber navigator invented them.
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   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 08:20:43 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield

     @Eiregoat @Rayfield I’d love to do that. Stellar nav is so cool. Then again I have to go and look up how to use the slide rule every few months because I no longer trust I’m doing it correctly

   • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad: (eiregoat@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 08:23:05 JST :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:

     in reply to

     • Rayfield
     I actually never learned how to use a sextant. I would like to though.
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks repeated this.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 08:23:05 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield

     @Eiregoat @Rayfield I looked into it once. There’s a really good old nav manual from like, 1812 or something that the navy used. Was kind of interesting to skim. Likely takes quite a bit of practice, and until all the satellites are blotted out it’s probably very tough to know you’ve got a fix

   • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad: (eiregoat@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 09:53:33 JST :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:

     in reply to

     • Rayfield
     Very few satellites are geosynchronous, and they're way too high orbit to be mistaken for stars. I suspect the biggest problem would be finding said stars with all the urban glow.
     
     The book sounds neat though.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 09:53:33 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield

     I’m thinking of all the LEE garbage they’re filling the skies with. It’s fairly visible, to the point Starlink said they’d start providing a way for astronomers to request dimming for select regions some time. I think they have like, 50,000 satellites in their constellation.

     I looked to see if I had it in my faves, found this which may have something fun. The book I’m thinking of was literally something like “Essential Navigation for the American Seaman”, and it was in use for more than 100 years in service, as a kind of do-all book for sailors. Should be kind of famous

     https://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/celnav

   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 09:54:06 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield

     Duh, it was literally in that link: “The American Practical Navigator, first published in 1802, was billed as the “epitome of navigation” by its original author, Nathaniel Bowditch. The text has evolved with the advances in navigation practices since that first issue and continues to serve as a valuable reference for marine navigation in the modern day.

     The publication describes in detail the principles and factors of navigation, including piloting, electronic navigation, celestial navigation, mathematics, safety, oceanography and meterology. It also contains various tables used in typical navigational calculations and solutions, including the formulas used to derive the tabular data. Many of these solutions can also be found using the on-line calculators located in the Nautical Calculators section of this Web site.

     The 2019 edition, updated to June 2021, of the American Practical Navigator is published in two volumes, which can be downloaded as complete PDF documents by selecting the hyperlinks below.”

     https://msi.nga.mil/Publications/APN

   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 09:56:58 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield

     Hell of a way to go out

   • BroDrillard (bro-drillard@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 10:05:38 JST BroDrillard

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     I passed the Celestial Nav test in the aughts. Couldn't do it now without relearning most of it. I still have a 2002 Bowditch around.
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   • BroDrillard (bro-drillard@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 10:08:39 JST BroDrillard

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     I have a few old slide rules around, but can you even buy them these days?
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 10:09:11 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     • BroDrillard

     Probably, but if they’re anything like ours they suck now. Every time I see a wizwheel it’s al cardboard and plastic, no more metal pressed ones like they used to make

   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 10:12:58 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     • BroDrillard

     I looked up the model and the first result is for the air and space museum:

     You can still find them but it is depressing they’re so underutilized. If you get speedy with them they get pretty handy. I knew an old guy flying 757’s who used to keep his handy because it was easier to track fuel burn that way

   • BroDrillard (bro-drillard@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 10:13:06 JST BroDrillard

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     My oldest slide rule is made of wood, I inherited that one. Then I have a metal and a couple of plastic ones. Also got a sextant.
     
     I'm all ready to navigate if electricity ever goes out completely. 😃
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Paultron-3030 (paultron@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 10:18:33 JST Paultron-3030

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     • BroDrillard
     yeah i actually had to use a slide rule in university (fuggin weird tbh, i'm not even that old) and it was a cheap pos of chinese plastic with cardstock inserts
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 10:19:48 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     • BroDrillard

     AFAIK we still issue them as part of the usual pilot pack to the entry guys, because it’s useful and still allowed on all the written tests. Most of us just forget about it once we move into stuff w/ better avionics. Or start using an ipad. Kind of hard to stick with it when you can plug in your specific aircraft and get a running, minute-to-minute fuel burn estimate adjusted for conditions

   • InquisitorVendee (inquisitorvendee@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 10:57:27 JST InquisitorVendee

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     American Practical Navigator by Bowditch is basically the bible.
     
     msi.nga.mil/Publications/APN
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   • InquisitorVendee (inquisitorvendee@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 10:58:25 JST InquisitorVendee

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     Generally, anything up there that isn't a celestial body isn't going to cause you any problems for celestial nav for a couple of reasons:
     
     1. They move too quickly to get a sextant reading from. You are looking through a small telescope with a very narrow field of view and trying to precisely match it to a reflected horizon. That takes a bit of time.
     
     2. You need to identify your star before shooting it. None of the calculations will give you anything useful if you don't identify the body correctly. Most navigators learn a couple of dozen major stars and their positions within constellations.
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 11:00:10 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     • BroDrillard

     Oh forgor to add, there’s a school of thought in teaching that using slide rules helps students visualize the relationships between numbers, in addition to being a more hands-on way to retain their attention in tasks. So there’s some rationale to issuing slide rules even today

   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 11:06:07 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     • InquisitorVendee

     Beautiful. If I had the money to spend, I’d grab one of those old marine chronometers

   • InquisitorVendee (inquisitorvendee@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 11:06:08 JST InquisitorVendee

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     You should. I'll loan you my grandfather's sextant:
   • InquisitorVendee (inquisitorvendee@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 16-Feb-2023 11:17:07 JST InquisitorVendee

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     If you aren't bothered about whether they are in working condition, nauticalia generally goes for buttons at antique auctions.
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • InquisitorVendee (inquisitorvendee@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 17-Feb-2023 05:39:28 JST InquisitorVendee

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     • Tovarish_Pedal
     @Tovarish_Pedal @WashedOutGundamPilot @Eiregoat @Rayfield It is an entirely mechanical, yet very accurate time piece that was essential to deep sea navigation prior to GPS.
     
     Having accurate time-keeping is required for running by dead reckoning (we have gone for x time, in y direction, therefore should be in position y) and for accurate calculation of a ship's position by sighting stars.
     
     To take an accurate celestial fix you need an accurate time and a rough idea of your ships position (within a few hundred miles works, but the closer the better).
     
     Effectively you compare what you DO observe in the sky at your true position against what you SHOULD observe in your estimated position at the same time. The difference between observation and reality allows you to calculate your true position.
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   • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad: (eiregoat@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 17-Feb-2023 05:39:28 JST :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:

     in reply to

     • Rayfield
     • Tovarish_Pedal
     • InquisitorVendee
     Just to point out, you don't need a really accurate chronometer for dead reckoning since your COG and SOG are going to be inaccurate anyhow. An hourglass is enough. You can also use local time with a sun sight or star sight since there's no need to compare to grenwich.
     
     Chronometers were absolutely game changers for calculating longtitude though, you're dead right.
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Tovarish_Pedal (tovarish_pedal@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 17-Feb-2023 05:39:29 JST Tovarish_Pedal

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     • InquisitorVendee
     what does this do?
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 17-Feb-2023 05:44:13 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:
     • Rayfield
     • Tovarish_Pedal
     • InquisitorVendee

     @Eiregoat @InquisitorVendee @Rayfield @Tovarish_Pedal People still don’t quite appreciate how magical the humble quartz watch is today. It’s still damn amazing that ten bucks will get you something you could use for navigation for a straight year without synchronizing. Mechanical springs and balance wheels could only go so far. (This one was a tuning fork movement, not quartz, but still very impressive for its time when your “cheap” bulova didn’t need to be synced with the radio tone twice a week like your boss’ rolex

   • :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad: (eiregoat@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 17-Feb-2023 05:53:36 JST :spinnenrad: Festivegoat :spinnenrad:

     in reply to

     • Rayfield
     • Tovarish_Pedal
     • InquisitorVendee
     Right. It's nuts that only a few generations earlier it was a massive problem that was sinking whole fleets of ships. Now it's an everyday item.
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.