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1. Royper (royper@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:57:12 JST Royper
   Now that’s a good idea.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:57:06 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • IsraelDelendaEst
     • GabeLakmann

     @GabeLakmann @IsraelDelendaEst @Royper It’s not about the time so much as the contamination. You now have TWO more surfaces to fog up, attract shit, frost over, catch layers of dirt, refract in the sunlight than you did with one optic

   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:57:07 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to

     • IsraelDelendaEst
     It's going to be a lot more likely that seconds matter when using a firearm for defense than the opposite.
     
     You really really need to hedge your bets when you can and count on NOT having extra time and then have extra time to use instead of figuring you'll have time to fuck with moving a magnifier around and miss the shot.
     
     I don't know what situation will present itself and neither do you which is why I'm going to bet on NOT having extra time and run a 3x/4x ACOG with a T2 on top instead of a red dot with a 3x/6x magnifier.
     
     If either of you haven't used an ACOG with a red dot on top, you really ought to try it. You'll see that magnifiers are hot trash afterwards.
   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:57:08 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to

     • IsraelDelendaEst
     Excellent point!
     
     "STOP! GIVE ME TIME TO FLIP UP MY MAGNIFIER - NOT FAIR!"
     
     When seconds matter I am not taking my hand off my weapon to flip up a shit ass magnifier when I could just slightly raise my head.
     
     Flip up magnifiers are trash. If you think you need a magnifier then you need to have a magnified optic with a red dot for close in, ideally on top in the 12 o clock position so it works better for NVG and is ambidextrous instead of the offset crap where you have to roll your weapon to use it.
   • IsraelDelendaEst (israeldelendaest@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:57:08 JST IsraelDelendaEst

     in reply to

     • GabeLakmann
     @GabeLakmann @Royper >When seconds matter
     Yeah well that's the thing, how do you know if seconds matter. I mean you COULD just shoot everything you can hit that looks vaguely hostile. That's certainly one way to go.
   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:57:09 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to

     • IsraelDelendaEst
     Target ID makes sense when people justify putting a 10x optic on a 5.56 for sure but a PDW is hard to justify putting magnified optics on.
     
     I've never had any problem making shots at 300yds with a red dot and a PDW like the p90 is most likely going to be used at 200yds and in, if not half that. You should still be able to make positive ID and determine threats with the naked eye at 100yds or less, especially at 50 yds or less which is where PDWs like the p90 and mp5 type weapons shine.
   • IsraelDelendaEst (israeldelendaest@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:57:09 JST IsraelDelendaEst

     in reply to

     • GabeLakmann
     @GabeLakmann @Royper You don't get to control any of that though, you're going to use the weapon you have under the conditions imposed on you. For the sake of a couple of ounces, you can greatly extend your ability to not shoot kids, for example.
     Next time you're out have someone else head downrange with a few milk bottles while your back's turned. Shooting them is one thing, finding the fuckers in scrub is another.
   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:57:10 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to
     Like you just said, a tiny red dot is all you need for a p-90 which is 5.7 and isn't meant to be used for long ranges.
     
     Just having a magnifier on a p90 is silly and mismatched magnifiers/magnifiers on red dots are a sign of people who play COD or something and don't actually use their stuff.
   • IsraelDelendaEst (israeldelendaest@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:57:10 JST IsraelDelendaEst

     in reply to

     • GabeLakmann
     @GabeLakmann @Royper It's worth pointing out that target identification is pretty important. Hyper-optimised setups are a sign of people who only ever shoot under very controlled circumstances.
   • Royper (royper@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:57:11 JST Royper

     in reply to

     • GabeLakmann
     @GabeLakmann I can only answer it depends. Different tools are ideal for different situations. For the P90‘s original purpose of a PDW for a truck driver. Something carried a lot and rarely fired I think the original tiny optic was a stroke of genius because it’s small, light weight and doesn’t snag on things most importantly it was way better than iron sights. In the context of a civilian owned rifle that largely would be for recreational shooting I think more options are more better.
     
     Also I agree the miss matched optics are sub optimal but the Magnifier is on a pic mount so I don’t think there be an issue switching it to any magnifier as long as it can be low mounted.
   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:57:12 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to
     Too bad they use mismatched optics and the magnifier is junky. It works I guess but the chinese magnifier seems like it'd get in your peripheral vision...
     
     Magnifiers on red dots suck anyways. Same with LPVOs.
     
     The best combo for close/mid range is a Trijicon ACOG 3.5x/4x and an Aimpoint T2 mounted on top.
     
     All you have to do is lift your head, no messing with shit when you don't have time and it works well for NVG use too.
     
     A p-90 doesn't even need a magnifier anyways.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:59:05 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • IsraelDelendaEst
     • GabeLakmann

     @GabeLakmann @IsraelDelendaEst @Royper In the right environment, it all fogs up. The higher end stuff is more resistant, but nothing is impervious

   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 10:59:06 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to

     • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks
     • IsraelDelendaEst
     Are you talking about the magnifier fogging up and such?
     
     I've never had an issue with ACOGs and Aimpoints fogging up or anything.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:06:17 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • IsraelDelendaEst
     • GabeLakmann

     @GabeLakmann @IsraelDelendaEst @Royper That’s your clime. The thing I really hate about the side flips is that they’re hanging out in the breeze, in angled sunlight you see how much grit and dirt gets collected on them. I suspect that enough huffing and puffing could let frost collect on there in some bitter cold, but not many go out and play around in 2º. I haven’t tried out anything that new, either, I’d hope they improved their coatings by now.

     Mount wiggle over time, too, but IDK which mounts are which, and it might just be a wear item after a few years. The flip mags are still cool and all, but they definitely have some considerations if you want a single rifle to last you a long campaign out in every weather condition under the sun. Around here I like variables, because it covers such a wide use envelope. But we have a lot of open sightlines and not a lot of cover to hop between

   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:06:18 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to

     • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks
     • IsraelDelendaEst
     I've had more issues with oakley eyepro fogging or getting dirty than my optics.
     
     The only issues ACOGs and Aimpoints can have are brightness settings but you get used to what you need and compensate for that during the day or night.
   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:16:07 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to

     • IsraelDelendaEst
     You could use it like a monocle I reckon. Binoculars are handy to carry in a pack if you think you'll be doing shtf stuff.
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:16:08 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to

     • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks
     • IsraelDelendaEst
     Yep, side flip stuff isn't that hot. Unity makes decent mounts but the idea just isn't as good when you can do better.
     
     LPVOs are decent but they really need a red dot on top so you can leave the LPVO at 4x/6x/8/x etc. instead of 1x and have to zoom in.
     
     Right now I'd either go with an ACOG 4x and T2 on top or a NightForce NX8 1-8x with a T2 on top. They cost about the same at the end of the day.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:16:08 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • IsraelDelendaEst
     • GabeLakmann

     @GabeLakmann @IsraelDelendaEst @Royper I keep hoping someone releases a cut-down one with a slanted lens protector just to make it harder to snag on stuff. Even just a shield would be nice, I hate that 90º thing hanging out there and catching straps and shit when you’re lazily trudging around without being careful.

   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:16:08 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to

     • IsraelDelendaEst
     • GabeLakmann
     And to answer the question, if I had that P-90 I'd toss the magnifier in the trash or sell it.
     
     Not worth the extra weight and hassle for what it does.
   • IsraelDelendaEst (israeldelendaest@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:16:08 JST IsraelDelendaEst

     in reply to

     • GabeLakmann
     @GabeLakmann @Royper Okay, that's the basic premise here. You said you'd take the magnifier off.
     Now, I'm contending that no matter how suboptimal it might be, the ability to identify targets a bit further out is more useful than saving a couple of ounces, because you might well have to do that.
   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:16:09 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to

     • IsraelDelendaEst
     Now you're trying to create a just so scenario to justify that magnifier haha.
     
     I know I'm going to be using my firearm for defense because WW3/civil war 2 hasn't broke out yet and I'm not a psycho.
     
     Also, I used to have an ACOG/T2 before I sold everything and not the pictured items because I think my purchases through and have first hand experience using firearms.
     
     I wish I could let you guys use my setup that I used to have. You would see that an ACOG with a T2 on top is the best mid range and in setup right now. LPVOs are alright if you use a T2 on top as well but they're too heavy for what they are.
   • IsraelDelendaEst (israeldelendaest@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:16:10 JST IsraelDelendaEst

     in reply to

     • GabeLakmann
     @GabeLakmann @Royper >It's going to be a lot more likely that seconds matter when using a firearm for defense
     Okay, and how do you know you're using your firearm for defense? We're not theorycrafting a perfect build here, we're asking if you want that magnifier on or not. You don't have an ACOG, you have the pictured items.
   • GabeLakmann (gabelakmann@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:18:38 JST GabeLakmann

     in reply to

     • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks
     • IsraelDelendaEst
     • sapphire
     45 degree off set mounts are trash.
     
     Do you have NVGs ?
     
     Have you ever used the combo I am talking about?
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:18:38 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • IsraelDelendaEst
     • GabeLakmann
     • sapphire

     @GabeLakmann @sapphire @IsraelDelendaEst @Royper I don’t have my own personal units but I’ve used them before. My own build doesn’t need them until I make the jump, which I don’t see being in the cards any time soon

   • sapphire (sapphire@tnd.lol)'s status on Friday, 10-Feb-2023 11:18:39 JST sapphire

     in reply to

     • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks
     • IsraelDelendaEst
     • GabeLakmann
     @GabeLakmann @IsraelDelendaEst @Royper @WashedOutGundamPilot >on top
     
     my man wants to put his gun on the ground so he can shoot it standing, just get a 45 degree mount