Alex Russell
This post by @chriscoyier is the most generous case (to Apple) regarding the boot that Cupertino has been stamping on the web's face for a decade.
https://chriscoyier.net/2023/01/16/chokepoint/
What Chris identifies as "no incentive" to allowing alternative browsers is indistinguishable in practice from late-stage monopoly: when you've extinguished competition and reconfigured the world assuming it doesn't exist, it sure looks like a lot of work to allow it.
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @chriscoyier Similarly, browser standards need to move slow. Bashing the company which cares about privacy and good standards design isn't the way to help the web. Getting obsessed with the downfall of browsers that won't implement technologies considered "harmful" by the rest of the ecosystem isn't the way to move things forward.
We need to do something about Chromium. And we need to shut down anyone trying to push it further.
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @chriscoyier Fundamentally, Safari is crucial to the web: It moves slowly, deliberately, and creates a lowest common denominator of compatibility. This is a GOOD thing, even though tech nerds obviously hate it.
Democracy is slow/somewhat dysfunctional by design. Things being hard to accomplish quickly without high consensus prevent a radical group from breaking the government.
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @chriscoyier It's so much wrong concentrated in one article.
People switch browsers because network effects force them to. It's a term Google (and probably Microsoft) teach their employees not to utter or claim to understand, but it's why Chromium is where it is. (It certainly isn't product quality.)
The fact you claim people switch browsers for improved security is... not even something that can be taken seriously. Nobody does that.
Alex Russell
@chriscoyier As someone that has worked on browsers for a minute now, I can tell you that "no incentive" is heavily influenced by capacity, and when you're as rich as Apple, capacity is a choice about values:
https://infrequently.org/2022/06/apple-is-not-defending-browser-engine-choice/
Apple does not *value* a free, open, interoperable, and vibrant web. Apple doesn't value having Mozilla in the world. It doesn't value a bigger and brighter future for the web. This is bad!
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @chriscoyier In fact, multiple vendors I deal with at work claim their products only work on Chrome, even when demonstrably false. We often have to use a Chromium-based browser when calling support at vendors before they will even consider that the issue is something else.
As of yet, we've never had an issue actually caused by not using Chrome. Thanks to Safari ensuring all web apps have to support standards, so we can use Firefox.
Alex Russell
@ocdtrekkie @chriscoyier counterpoint: all of the research that causes browser teams to invest super heavily in security. E.g., Project Zero came out of the Chrome team.
When your product loses a reputation for good security, uses flee, and specifically the largest deployers (enterprises).
So at the risk of being quarrelsome, I humbly suggest that what you think of as "nobody doing that" is, in fact, central to the way browsers are built and adopted.
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @chriscoyier I will try to hold back on my view of teams like Project Zero and why they exist. ;)
But no, nobody switched off Internet Explorer because of security. Web developers forced them to for compatibility. "If you want to use this service, you must install Chrome" has driven nearly all enterprise browser shifts. That's the network effects.
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @chriscoyier The problem is that beyond the problematic ways Google spawned Chromium's market share, the greater it grows from here, the worse it is for web standards. The more people use Chromium, the less developers write for the web.
Consider how many people write Android apps that don't require Play Services APIs. Almost none, because so few people have removed Play from their phones. The proprietary fork wins because the share is so high.
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @chriscoyier Your corporate antimonopoly training is clearly up to date.
But no, it's network effects. Because of Chrome's large network share (largely created by Android's illegal bundling behavior, and deals to inject Chrome installers when people installed Adobe Reader or Flash Player, and three popups in Gmail), developers no longer feel the need to support browsers except for Google Chrome. They write for it, test with it, and refuse to provide support for anything else.
Alex Russell
That's not a network effect. Literally, not what a network effect is/does or how it works. There's a literature on this and words have meaning.
Putting aside the fact that people *do* switch for security, the phrase you're looking for is perhaps "self-preferencing" or "related party activities", but more likely "competition".
Sites asking users to adopt better engines is not _prima facie_ bad, tho depending on context, can be. But also, how competition functions.
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @chriscoyier Does Apple have it's own reasons for gatekeeping Safari on iOS and limiting the usefulness of web apps? *Absolutely.* Apple, like Google, is also a monopolist which exacts large taxes on society.
But that doesn't change the critical role it currently plays in protecting us from a far more malevolent entity.
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @chriscoyier Mobile Safari is currently preventing the worst case scenario, however. Because the iPhone platform is too big to ignore/drop, and requires you support WebKit, it ensures developers *must* develop for the web, and not for Chrome.
As soon as developers can push people to install Chrome (or "compete" on iOS, as you claim), support for web standards will no longer be business-critical, and developers will increasingly require Chrome-proprietary APIs that are harmful.
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @chriscoyier In the same way, if we do not aggressively reduce Chromium use, the web will be written for Chromium, not web standards. Just like the old IE days, but with an advertising-revenue-primary company at the helm.
Adrian Cochrane
@ocdtrekkie @slightlyoff @chriscoyier As an amateur browserdev, the inevitable chrome monopoly (which is mostly driven by self-preferencing) which would result from Apple opening iOS up to browser competition concerns me greatly!
I don't want to browsers to be laughed at for *only* receiving the significant amount of funding WebKit does! As I operate from a shoestring budget.
Adrian Cochrane
@ocdtrekkie @slightlyoff @chriscoyier P.S. I don't like Apple!
Alex Russell
@alcinnz @ocdtrekkie @chriscoyier: the mechanism of action in this thought experiment is, at best, unclear.
Adrian Cochrane
@slightlyoff @ocdtrekkie @chriscoyier You take it is a given that browser engines need as much funding as they do. I don't.
Apple's protectionism isn't an ideal measure to enforce browser competition, but the last thing I want is for yet more webdevs to only test in Chrome. Ideally I'd have them test in Lynx or my own work, but Safari will do!
Adrian Cochrane
@slightlyoff @ocdtrekkie @chriscoyier Google has the power to cajole users, which they have used in the past! And they won't be the only ones doing so.
This has already happened on the desktop!
Adrian Cochrane
@slightlyoff @ocdtrekkie @chriscoyier Again, you hit at the heart of our disagreement!
It is entirely possible that Apple could increase WebKit to help Safari keep pace. But I don't think they should need to. I don't think browserengine dev should require the investment you take as a given!
Alex Russell
@alcinnz @ocdtrekkie @chriscoyier I tried to get into it here:
At a minimum, any future state claim must contend with the *current* ability of other browsers/sites to cajole users to switch browser on iOS and the huge money that *already* sits behind that choice.
Why is this new future materially different?
Alex Russell
@alcinnz @ocdtrekkie @chriscoyier the money would be the same (search share == $$$), and so *current* intensity to prompt for users to switch should be near 100% of potential prompting, modulo legit API differences that Apple currently externalises costs to developers for.
Is that big? Compared with the money *already* at stake? No.
So why is this potential future different? What's the mechanism of action? And why won't Safari be able to keep pace?
Adrian Cochrane
@rysiek @ocdtrekkie @slightlyoff @chriscoyier Fair enough!
The status quo is atrocious and we need better pro-competition measures!
It's just that in the advocacy for to open iOS to browserengine competition I keep seeing the same quality metric of dev-facing featureset which I disagree with. It's more that which frustrates me!
For there to be real competition we need alternative quality metrics!
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@alcinnz that seems upside-down to me. Yes, we need to do something about Chrome's monopoly on the Web, but tolerating Apple's chokehold on iDevice users as far as browser choice is concerned is not the way to do that!
Can't fight a monopoly with another monopoly. Whoever wins, we lose.
ocdtrekkie
@rysiek @alcinnz @slightlyoff @chriscoyier The thing is, Apple isn't "winning" by holding control of it's own devices, which are a distant second in the market. Apple is a monopolist but it's a relatively harmless one.
It'd be great to deal with it, sure, but when a bad guy is preventing the apocalypse, you do something about the apocalypse first, before taking out the bad guy.
Let's deal with Apple: After we obliterate Google's chokehold on the web.
Adrian Cochrane
@rysiek @ocdtrekkie @slightlyoff @chriscoyier I'll assume not, but OT does. Though I reckon he sincerely believes what he's saying!
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@ocdtrekkie did you just imply in a not-so-veiled way that I somehow have a vested interest in expanding Chromium's monopoly?
Would you kindly care to expand on that please?
ocdtrekkie
@rysiek @alcinnz @slightlyoff @chriscoyier The issue, of course, is that nearly all backing of dealing with Apple is disingenuously promoted by people with a strong vested interest in expanding Chromium's monopoly.
Alex Russell
@alcinnz @ocdtrekkie @chriscoyier nobody floating the klein-bottle theory that Safari sucking is good for the web seems bothered that Safari has caught up a lot in the last 18 months. Why is that?
Adrian Cochrane
@slightlyoff @ocdtrekkie @chriscoyier I honestly have no answer.
Personally I guess I have little enough faith in the status quo I can't riled up about these developments.
Adrian Cochrane
@ocdtrekkie Given @slightlyoff is referring to his own experience to make his arguments, I'm not surprised this toot didn't go down well.
That said I do have experience with standards-setting & implementation I could discuss...
Alex Russell
@ocdtrekkie @alcinnz @chriscoyier but that's besides the point: you've fingered the wrong party as being guilty for requiring a more capable engine. Apple is the one responsible for not keeping the pace, backing developers into the shitty position of having to ask you to use something else (which I promise they don't want to do)
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @alcinnz @chriscoyier This is false. And again, just lacks experience being out in the world of the industry. You just aren't speaking with any sort of knowledge of how real technology vendors operate in the enterprise (or even consumer) space.
Alex Russell
@ocdtrekkie @alcinnz @chriscoyier: this is both ignorant of how standards are developed, and misreads how Apple has weaponised disinvestment to slow progress in standards and make new features "non-standard" by denying their own involvement in the process.
ocdtrekkie
@slightlyoff @alcinnz @chriscoyier I've already explained what's different: There are already numerous vendors that demand clients use Chrome. However, they have to meet web standards because they want to support iOS (whether through Chrome or not). Once Chrome on iOS is Chromium, the need to write code that supports web standards is gone.
Adrian Cochrane
@ocdtrekkie @rysiek @slightlyoff @chriscoyier I'm on it! With NLnet funding, and some help!
Happy to see other measures!
ocdtrekkie
@rysiek @alcinnz @slightlyoff @chriscoyier I agree that depending on Apple is a truly dire situation, but Google has already systematically dismantled most of the web's defenses.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@ocdtrekkie and if you are right and it is, we need to find a better way to protect the open Web post-haste, as relying on a monopolist like Apple in this is simply dangerous and foolhardy.
Either way, Apple's iDevice browser chokehold should not be defended.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@ocdtrekkie this i speculation. You are entitled to it, but I am entitled to disagree with it. And I do. I do not believe that iDevice browser chokehold is — as you imply — the only thing stopping the open Web from ending.
ocdtrekkie
@rysiek @alcinnz @slightlyoff @chriscoyier No guilt-by-association attempt was directed at you, I apologize if I made that unclear. Cory cites OWA directly as a source, which I find very problematic, as they have a juvenile understanding of antitrust.
The problem is when Apple loses their browser ban, the web will end very quickly as an open thing. It will hit like a truck, and we'll all be wondering what happened after.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@ocdtrekkie I became adversarial when a guilt-by-association attempt was lobbed in my general direction. I don't take lightly to that kind of stuff.
My position is that we should be able to walk and chew gum. We can work to dismantle Chromium's monopoly, while at the same time prying open Apple's iDevice browser monopoly. Because *both* are bad for the open Web.
Playing one against the other is playing into the hands of one or the other monopolist.
ocdtrekkie
@rysiek @alcinnz @slightlyoff @chriscoyier I'm not sure why you're being so adversarial. You entered this conversation claiming that my position (that we deal with Google's abuses before Apple's) was upside-down. Which implies you think we should deal with Apple's abuses prior to Google's, despite the latter being worse.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@ocdtrekkie I didn't say it's a "bigger" problem, did I? Why are you molding what I said into a convenient straw man to attack?
ocdtrekkie
@rysiek @alcinnz @slightlyoff @chriscoyier It wasn't directed at you, it wasn't intended to group you, but I think the position that iOS on Safari is a bigger problem than Chrome being already literally everywhere else is really strange and confusing in the light of all of the surrounding information.
ocdtrekkie
@rysiek @alcinnz @slightlyoff @chriscoyier I mean, my point is that almost all promotion for enforcement against Apple before Google is written by one of the people that was in this running conversation you entered, who has a major conflict of interest. Independent groups like Open Web Advocacy tend to almost solely hinge on his position as a citation.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@ocdtrekkie and yet you chose to use this "argument" in a conversation with me, responding to my toot. I cannot but interpret that as a pretty underhanded way of creating "guilt by association" — at the very least, something along the lines of "are you sure this is the company you want to be seen part of."
Pretty damn cheap, to be honest.
ocdtrekkie
@rysiek @alcinnz @slightlyoff @chriscoyier I was not referring to you.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
@ocdtrekkie I asked you a direct question. I would appreciate a direct answer.
ocdtrekkie
@rysiek @alcinnz @slightlyoff @chriscoyier Specifically, much of the promotional content about "dealing with" the Apple browser monopoly on iOS comes from Googlers (and ex-Googlers working on Chromium at Microsoft).
You know, the sort of people deathly worried about "competition" while working on something that already has a 70% market share that they're really trying to grow.
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