Conversation

Notices

1. CheRosach (cherosach@mastodonapp.uk)'s status on Saturday, 03-Jun-2023 19:31:20 JST CheRosach

   We live in a strange world, where we think we can buy or build our way out of a crisis that has been created by buying and building things.
   Where a football game or a film gala gets more media attention than the biggest crisis humanity has ever faced.
   Greta Thunberg

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 03-Jun-2023 19:31:10 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • mike805
     • rood
     @mike805 @rood @CheRosach it's hard to say what the actual capacity of a decentralized farming system that doesn't rely on petroleum fertilizer could be. I do think if more food was grown closer to where it is consumed we could reduce waste significantly which would mean we don't need current production levels to feed the same amount of people. So much food ends up being lost to the distribution system.
   • mike805 (mike805@fosstodon.org)'s status on Saturday, 03-Jun-2023 19:31:12 JST mike805

     in reply to

     • rood

     @rood @CheRosach The problem is the Haber process removed all limits from both farming and warfare. The population is now several times what it was before the Haber process. Not sure you could feed everyone without it. And Haber process uses natural gas as its input.

     Also, warfare. You cannot win a war without the Haber process and the unlimited supply of explosives it provides.

     The one thing that might work is nuclear power. Hopefully the greens will get over their fear of it.

   • rood (rood@aus.social)'s status on Saturday, 03-Jun-2023 19:31:19 JST rood

     in reply to

     • mike805

     @mike805 @CheRosach most food is force fed fossil fuels. The world is force fed fossil fuels. There are millions of better options, but big capitalism is backing the force feeding management plan.

   • mike805 (mike805@fosstodon.org)'s status on Saturday, 03-Jun-2023 19:31:20 JST mike805

     in reply to

     @CheRosach If you want to replace fire you will need something better to replace it with.

     Stopping is not an option, because most of our food comes from fossil fuels.

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 03-Jun-2023 19:47:39 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • verified neko :verified::verified::verified::makemeneko:
     • mike805
     • rood
     @roboneko @rood @mike805 @CheRosach you can fix nitrogen with beans and peas too :smirk:
   • verified neko :verified::verified::verified::makemeneko: (roboneko@bae.st)'s status on Saturday, 03-Jun-2023 19:47:40 JST verified neko :verified::verified::verified::makemeneko:

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • mike805
     • rood
     @CheRosach @mike805 @rood @thatguyoverthere @rood @mike805 @CheRosach
     
     > petroleum fertilizer
     
     you can fix nitrogen using solar power ...
     Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: likes this.
   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Wednesday, 07-Jun-2023 06:25:06 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • mike805
     • rood
     @mike805 @rood @CheRosach The great leap forward was a massive centralization push. Decentralization happens in stages and I don't think you can expect the existing stakeholders to participate in a push in that direction. The systems are not centralized so you can't expect to see the exact same thing everywhere you go or to be able to deploy the same methods in every locality.
     
     The "new system" as far as food goes is growing your own food and finding other people (farmers) in your community to buy stuff you can't grow from. It already exists, it's just a matter of adapting and building networks in the real world.
     
     Solutions also don't have to work everywhere for them to work somewhere. It might make more sense for West Virginian mountain dwellers to burn coal while people on the coast of Florida can use solar or hydro for power (or oil, lots of oil in the gulf). There are many ways to generate electricity, and I see no reason for there to be one grand solution to the problem that is perfect for every single situation. That seems like a fairly tall order.
     
     For the record, I have no problem with the use of fossil fuels or nuclear energy, but I do think that higher concentration of waste leads to pollution that can't be assimilated by local environments which can be destructive. This is true whether you are talking about generating electricity or farming food. I was mainly challenging the assumption that we **need** petroleum based fertilizers simply on the amount of waste that exists in the food distribution system. I also think that power can be generated in less centralized ways, but I think food is a lot easier to start with.
   • mike805 (mike805@fosstodon.org)'s status on Wednesday, 07-Jun-2023 06:25:07 JST mike805

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • rood

     @thatguyoverthere @rood @CheRosach Great, but we need the new system working before the old one is removed, otherwise people are going to starve. "Let's just change everything right now!" is how the big famine in China happened during the "Great Leap Forward" which turned into a leap off a cliff.

     That means emissions will increase before they decrease, because you have to build the new stuff while continuing to run the old stuff.

     Solar panels and wind turbines are built out of fossil fuels too