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1. Angry Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:39:19 JST Angry Sun
   > That was an explicit anti-goal of Wayland, so that we don't circle right back to one giant display server trying to support every user case that everyone has to make work for their needs.
   
   > Wayland runs on more than just desktops, it also runs on mobile devices and embedded systems where a lot of the desktop protocols don't even make sense.
   
   aren't these two statements contradicting each other
   • Izuru Yakumo (八雲 出流) repeated this.
   • LS (lain@lain.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:39:17 JST LS

     in reply to
     @sun it's one of these linux issues, i have no idea why it constantly happens there, it's the same for sound with OSS/alsa/pulseaudio/wirewhatever (even though OSS works fine in freebsd). mac os had no problems going from 9 to X. BeOS was running great with both graphics and sound back in the 95 days.
   • Angry Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:39:18 JST Angry Sun

     in reply to
     "x11 does too much stuff that is why wayland is needed"
     
     "you can't do this dozen conceptually simple tasks on wayland in a simple way because wayland doesn't know if it's running on a desktop, an in-car display, or vr goggles"
   • Angry Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:39:18 JST Angry Sun

     in reply to
     I just strongly get the impression that
     
     1. something to replace x11 was needed
     2. nevertheless all the warnings about what happens when you try to start a project over from scratch are 100% true
   • Angry Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:44:05 JST Angry Sun

     in reply to

     • LS
     @lain literally the very first thing I was ever told that we needed wayland for was that it was impossible to fix screen tearing in x11. yet even today years later this is not a fixed problem in wayland. this single thing soured me on wayland completely. I feel like we were sold a super expensive lie
   • LS (lain@lain.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 06:44:05 JST LS

     in reply to
     @sun
   • PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:09:56 JST PalePimp

     in reply to

     • LS
     @lain @sun The components in Windows, BSD/MacOS are integrated from top to bottom, in what you call Linux the OS is the sum of what would be multiple disconnected companies working with a common shared core.
     
     The correct approach to Linux is to always consider what program you are running to perform what task.
     
     The concept is no different when you install notepad+ in Windows, in Linux this concept is just extended to every component including the base tools, the people who wrote the ls or the cat command do not work for the same company that does the kernel so to speak.
     
     This is why different Linux distributions use different tools for similar tasks and why they are different from each other and have different problems and different behaviour. This is also why you have dozen of desktops with different levels of maturity for example which seem to always disagree on what's the best approach while on Windows you have an unified vision and experience for good or bad.
     
     The audio in MacOS was done by Apple for AppleOS to run on Apple hardware, vertically integrated, of course it works, they paid their devs so it works out of the box.
     
     In Linux several parts had to be worked on separately, first the kernel driver part (alsa) then the kernel itself had to improve, then people wrote software mixers (oss, pulse, jack) each tryng to solve the same problem with different priorities, then came pipewire which is better than the rest and does pulse and jack protocols too.
     
     Wayland is the same, however wayland's adoption is a disaster because as someone mentioned it is a full 100% incompatible rewrite and an untested paradigm.
   • LS (lain@lain.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:09:56 JST LS

     in reply to

     • PalePimp
     @PalePimp @sun that's all good but you still get screen tearing and crackling sound in linux
   • CrunkLord420 (crunklord420@clubcyberia.co)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:11:13 JST CrunkLord420

     in reply to

     • LS
     • PalePimp
     @lain @PalePimp @sun tearing is just digital motion blur it's perfectly natural and normal.
   • LS (lain@lain.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:11:50 JST LS

     in reply to

     • CrunkLord420
     • PalePimp
     @crunklord420 @PalePimp @sun i can't hear more than 20 fps anyway
     CrunkLord420 likes this.
   • Angry Sun (sun@shitposter.world)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:15:41 JST Angry Sun

     in reply to

     • LS
     • PalePimp
     @PalePimp @lain should have just copied apple's display renderer and compositor
   • PalePimp (palepimp@poa.st)'s status on Friday, 21-Feb-2025 07:15:41 JST PalePimp

     in reply to

     • LS
     @sun @lain Systemd for example is heavily inspired on launchd from MacOS.
     
     Wayland is not as bad as people claim, trust me I am a X11 diehard and when wayland works well it trounces X11.
     
     The entire Wayland edifice and ecosystem lacks maturity. Sadly the reference implementation is useless to the point where in practical terms is like it doesn't exist other than as some kind of demo.
     
     Things are accelerating though and finally we're not that far away from running our desktops on a Wayland based compositor or another.
     
     I have been doing tests lately and while I won't run it yet, I could live with it now if I had to. Trust me I'm one of those you'll take X.org from my dead cold hands types and I can see things moving in the right direction now.
     LS likes this.