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1. Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:22:07 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

   is recidivism high because we limit opportunity for fuckups?

   • Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:26:52 JST Moon

     in reply to
     @thatguyoverthere yes.
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   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:27:24 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Moon
     @Moon seems like something we could fix if we really wanted to. Also seems like if it were fixed the crime rate would fall.
   • Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:37:22 JST Moon

     in reply to
     @thatguyoverthere the problem is social and also because of biases. so like, if you give a chance to a former criminal and they commit a crime again, 99 out of 100 people will say "you should have known" instead of "well it was honorable to give them a chance, most of the time it works but sometimes it doesn't." also for more serious crimes, like child sexual abuse, do you really want them close to kids ever again? unfortunately (but correctly) their second chance is less valuable to society than an unabused child.
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   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:38:39 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Moon
     @Moon yeah I know it's not consistent, but sex offenders to me don't necessarily deserve the second chance (whether the harm a child or an adult). Oddly I don't feel that way about murderers. I think maybe that's because there can be a lot of variables at play that lead to a person taking another person's life, but rape and sexual abuse is always self gratification.
   • Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:39:35 JST Moon

     in reply to
     @thatguyoverthere as a side note if i started an online business, depending onthe crime i would definitely hire former convicts at a lower rate but then rapidly meet their pay to prevailing wage as they proved truthworthiness.
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   • Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:40:29 JST Moon

     in reply to
     @thatguyoverthere yeah there are probably very few or no defense rapes
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   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:42:06 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Moon
     @Moon on it's face you might think "oh well their victim survived the attack" but they often relive it over and over for years. child abuse is even worse not only because it harms the child but I think a lot of abusers have themselves been abused. It's a terrible cycle.
   • Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:43:32 JST Moon

     in reply to
     @thatguyoverthere sexual abuse is a unique harm for many people (admittedly not everyone though.)
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   • errante (errante@rot.gives)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:48:32 JST errante

     in reply to

     • Moon
     @thatguyoverthere @Moon murder is definitely an interesting case because its also often something that people can and do regret
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   • Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:49:13 JST Moon

     in reply to

     • errante
     @errante @thatguyoverthere there's also a lot of cases where for example, a woman is basically socially trapped in a horrible relationship and right or wrong she thinks killing the guy in her sleep is the only way out.
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   • errante (errante@rot.gives)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:49:13 JST errante

     in reply to

     • Moon
     @Moon @thatguyoverthere exactly!
     
     i feel like our focus rather than on Enacting Justice should be to reduce the situations where Enacting Justice is neccessary
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   • errante (errante@rot.gives)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 01:51:24 JST errante

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • errante
     @thatguyoverthere @Moon theres a question of the structures neccessary to perform any sort of reform that makes me think a lot about justice and how to enact it in communities. the easiest thing is always punitive but evidence has shown that punitive systems degrade pretty fast
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   • Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:22:17 JST Moon

     in reply to

     • errante
     @errante @thatguyoverthere I actually think that developing moral systems is necessary beyond preventing harm but special care has to be taken to not let purity take over. there are challenges with the many small systems model because we all have similar mental deficits that make certain problems crop up repeatedly. so like, if you as a society manage to make rules that prevent that defect, it works better overall than a thousand small communities independently making that same mistake and many not overcoming it. of course this is a balancing act with one big society that establishes bad rules. the advantage of lots of small systems is, potentially, innovation in problem solving. my values lead me to prefer many small systems over one big system but in the long run i'm afraid one big system is necessary because onyla big system can solve certain problems in a timely fashion. you would think for example, if a giant asteroid headed toward the earth that took everyone on board to find a way to destroy, we would all act in rational self interest to do that, but sadly i'm not so sure anymore.
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   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:22:17 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • errante
     @Moon @errante do you think the big society would act any more rationally than many small in that asteroid case? I think the small societies could always "open source" working solutions and others could adopt practices that made sense to them.
   • errante (errante@rot.gives)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:22:18 JST errante

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • errante
     @Moon @thatguyoverthere how do we create a society that tries to fundamentally reduce harm that's possible?
     
     theres this interesting dichotomy in some thought - the idea of creating a large unified society, or many small ones that have no power over each other
     
     the idea is that if you have many small societies, even though those societies may be more vulnerable to harms such as fascism, there will be overall less of that harm, because if the big society turns fascist, everyone gets hurt
     
     is implementing just systems a balancing problem like this?
   • mia (mia@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:22:41 JST mia

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • errante
     @Moon @errante @thatguyoverthere
     
     > because [only a] big system can solve certain problems in a timely fashion.
     
     So long as maximum size of the system doesn't cause a lockup from overhead inherently
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   • Moon (moon@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:23:16 JST Moon

     in reply to

     • touch fluffy tail
     • errante
     @fluffy @errante @thatguyoverthere i don't adhere to it but in practice it does't matter if it's objective, i mean that some things are infohazards and so we create taboos to minimize their damage
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   • touch fluffy tail (fluffy@social.handholding.io)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:23:23 JST touch fluffy tail

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • errante
     have you heard of the philosophy of moral nihilism?
   • errante (errante@rot.gives)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:24:31 JST errante

     in reply to

     • Moon
     @Moon @thatguyoverthere i see you've watched 'dont look up' :)
     
     my reasoning for supporting many small systems is mostly personal - its the life i want to lead. its also somewhat a reactionary take. i enjoy 'diversity' - heterogeneity. single system thought is single technology, single methodology thought - if we had many heterogeneous systems, what could we find out or achieve or develop?
     
     while a moral system might be favourable, is it necessarily establishable in a way that's sustainable? you've seen what happened to religions as a source of morality. any attempt to develop 'purely logical' systems come up against the fallibility of logic.
     
     my main worry with any single big system is that rather than having an ecosystem of systems that regulate each other, you have a system that has to regulate itself, and in general that leads to poor results, such as bureaucracy, inadequacy, or at worst, collapse
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   • errante (errante@rot.gives)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:24:44 JST errante

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • mia
     @mia @Moon @thatguyoverthere exactly! and the systems created to manage overhead tend to cause it....
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   • mia (mia@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:25:00 JST mia

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • errante
     @errante @Moon @thatguyoverthere
     
     Or they cut the product down to "one size fits all" and let the edge cases through the cracks.
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   • errante (errante@rot.gives)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:26:17 JST errante

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • mia
     @mia @Moon @thatguyoverthere hmm? is this a jab at me?
   • errante (errante@rot.gives)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:26:17 JST errante

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • errante
     • mia
     @mia @Moon @thatguyoverthere im not using westernisation to refer to the West, but rather to the aforementioned process of locally adapted and relevant technologies being displaced by others
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   • errante (errante@rot.gives)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:26:18 JST errante

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • errante
     • mia
     @mia @Moon @thatguyoverthere a strong part of my politics is a hatred of 'westernisation' - existing functional systems and practices and techniques are replaced with western One Size Fits All - microwaves, fridges, cars, etc. these technologies are rarely practically better than what they replace, and often fit the environment poorly, but match economic constraints better.
     
     i still think canals provide more societal good than car-only roads :V
   • mia (mia@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:26:18 JST mia

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • errante
     @errante @Moon @thatguyoverthere
     
     So you drive a Trabant, to protest the conforming nature of Westernization? That doesn't make sense you say? Hahaha, imagine.
   • errante (errante@rot.gives)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:26:19 JST errante

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • mia
     @mia @Moon @thatguyoverthere when There's Only One Way To Do It, that way is rarely good
   • Firewire K900 (pupperipherals@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 02:33:42 JST Firewire K900

     in reply to

     • Moon
     @thatguyoverthere @Moon Murders are often a one-and-done crime. Even when it's from gangbanging, a 20-year sentence is plenty to chill out 90% of murderers (and the 10% that don't are the ones that earn more time from their additional crimes while locked up, anyway). Rapists never seem to "get better"
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   • 7666 (7666@comp.lain.la)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 03:02:16 JST 7666

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • Paulo
     • errante
     • mia
     @paulo @mia @errante @Moon @thatguyoverthere what am I supposed to do, swim? Keep my own cow? I live in the middle of the forest
   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 03:02:16 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • Paulo
     • errante
     • 7666
     • mia
     @7666 @paulo @mia @errante @Moon cows don't mind
   • Paulo (paulo@marsey.moe)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 03:02:17 JST Paulo

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • errante
     • 7666
     • mia
     @7666 @mia @errante @Moon @thatguyoverthere you really say "canals are better than a 8 lane highway" and american thinks you'll have to paddle to get milk lmao
   • 7666 (7666@comp.lain.la)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 03:02:19 JST 7666

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • errante
     • mia
     @errante @mia @Moon @thatguyoverthere I am not jumping in a canoe and paddlin' to get milk
   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 03:06:38 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • Paulo
     • errante
     • 7666
     • mia
     @7666 @paulo @mia @errante @Moon If I had the space to raise cattle and lived in the right climate I would choose the Scottish Highland cattle.
   • 7666 (7666@comp.lain.la)'s status on Saturday, 08-Apr-2023 03:06:45 JST 7666

     in reply to

     • Moon
     • Paulo
     • errante
     • mia
     @thatguyoverthere @paulo @mia @errante @Moon thought that was a brahmin for a sec
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