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>Wagner less than 1 kilometer from capturing the last safe road out of Bakhmut
>still no order to retreat for the 10k+ soldiers there
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@weaf so at this point they're either encircled or they will rout
too bad the russians don't seem willing to do things like encourage a rout and then slaughter them as they flee
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@deprecated_ii Wagner seems to be willing and that's probably why the Russians put them in charge of this one
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@weaf I just wonder if they have the firepower
I would be setting up one hell of a rain of artillery anticipating the rout
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@deprecated_ii Map there was some truth to Prigozhin screaming about needing ammunition except it wasn't about needing it to keep momentum on the offensive
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@weaf @deprecated_ii Gotta say, the Omega Mini-Hotel is a nice touch.
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@weaf I don't know what the Ukes total numbers look like, can they keep going with 10k guys just getting completely encircled? At this point the sacrifice to hold Bakhmut doesn't seem at all worth it.
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@NotImportant It'll be devastating to lose that much men and equipment but the war will continue. It'll certainly make the defense of Slavyansk more difficult. Also should be noted that 10k men defending Bakhmut is a conservative estimate. Some are claiming 35k men are defending the city.
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@NotImportant @weaf it was rumored they were cycling their good units out and replacing them with conscript militia, idk if that was verified or what
they don't care if they lose 10k militia
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@deprecated_ii @NotImportant There's a map of Bahkmut with some identified units in the city. It seems there is a mix between experienced units and TDF to hold things together.
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@deprecated_ii @NotImportant @weaf i hope they sent lots of NATO glowies and the troon there
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@deprecated_ii @weaf I want to say that can't be true, but the fact that they still have people there and just wasting their lives shows how little they care for their men.
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@weaf @deprecated_ii Are the Ukes unable to use that southern highway due to Russian fire control over it or are they still moving material through it?
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@NotImportant @deprecated_ii It's basically the frontline down there. If or when Wagner takes the heights north of that southern highway, the Ukrainian army will have to pass through a several kilometer long kill zone that will make the Highway of Death pale in comparison
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@NotImportant @weaf ukraine will go down as one of the most poorly managed military defenses in human history
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@weaf F U C K
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@deprecated_ii @weaf I remember when this whole defense of Bakhmut really became a focus I know there was talk of the Ukes setting up a fortified line behind it. So I thought that the defense of Bakhmut made sense as a delaying tactic to prepare it. At this point it's defense is nothing more than some retarded propaganda battle for Zelensky. These men should of booby trapped the city, blown the roads and did an orderly retreat to a more defensible position to bleed the Russians.
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@deprecated_ii @NotImportant @weaf even if it's bad now it's amazing how quickly NATO improved it
why tf vlad gave them time to reorganize their command structure to include NATO officers and rearm the ukr army will be an entirely new, if smaller, 'why didn't Hitler do Barbarossa on time'
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@NotImportant @deprecated_ii They aren't buying time for defense construction, they're buying time for their "NATO trained army" to be ready to deploy.
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@deprecated_ii @weaf I don't think many will see it that way, but hopefully people will learn that throwing your men into desperate defenses for no gain will lead to a failure.
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@NotImportant @deprecated_ii According to this article it's 15k across different European countries while the US itself is training 3k Ukrainians in "Combined Arms" tactics
aljazeera.com/news/2022/11/15/eu-launches-military-training-mission-for-ukraines-armed-forces
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@weaf @deprecated_ii What do we know about this NATO trained army? Do we have a size and what tasks they will be trained for?
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@NotImportant @weaf @deprecated_ii They getting trained in britain and germany i think theyve claimed 60k. Theyre getting mostly combat arms training along with more specialized shit. Probably a few pilots as well but theyre not saying that yet
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@Paultron @deprecated_ii @NotImportant @weaf Ive been readin about merica in naw and basically politicians are retards who want to do war nice so they do nonesclatory actions hoping to do diplomacy. This usually gives time to the defender as we saw with the ukes. Doesnt mean theyll win. Russia has a better position than we did in name but it does mean a conflict will be dragged out.
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@Boomerman @Paultron @NotImportant @weaf russia didn't do themselves any favors for the first 9 months or so, that's for sure
but still their position is so much stronger -- and practically unassailable with the forces ukraine has -- that the only way they lose is if they lose their will to win. or NATO jumps in full steam and china doesn't back up russia
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@Paultron @deprecated_ii @NotImportant @weaf Merica has just as many nam problems with the ukes though theyre not that different from the south vietnamese and we have a lot of the same issues with this war as that war. Basically which state can be less retarded and which can support their proxies better. Russia basically wins by default but their strategy means thousands of people will die to do it.
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@weaf @deprecated_ii If I was these guys I would hope Russia wins before I get sent back. Looking at how the Ukes are using there men, they wouldn't do the smart thing of holding these guys back and using them in choice engagements.
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@Paultron @deprecated_ii @NotImportant @weaf There also a deep op potential that they make russia think our stuff is genuinely trash because we hand it to uke retards who dont know how to use it. Like the agm88s. We know they work well when used properly theyre not so hot with a garmin GPS nigger rigged to a mig and shot at low altitude with zero support. Maybe its less about testing and more about psychologically making the russians think "we cant be touched by these arms". Then again idk how theyre gonna get anyone to support boots on the ground or air assets in ukraine.
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@weaf What they don't want you to know:
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@MechaSilvio there won't be any solar eclipses over ukraine in the next ten years so I think we're safe
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@MechaSilvio @weaf
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@deprecated_ii @Boomerman @Paultron @NotImportant @weaf china's benefits from more dead guialos so I wouldn't put it past them to not send more substantial aid to Russia
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@professionalbigot69 @deprecated_ii @Boomerman @NotImportant @Paultron I think it's more of a response to the US escalating in Taiwan
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@deprecated_ii @Paultron @NotImportant @weaf Thing is NATO could fuck up a lot of shit before china even really has a chance. Its more or less a race to bottom at this point but america has been wasting military capital for the blast 80 years.
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@Boomerman @NotImportant @weaf @deprecated_ii I don't think a few months of "specialist" training are gonna do any difference. It's not that they're sneaking on the Ruskies...they have been doing real war and are on the ground.
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@NotImportant @weaf people may not see it that way but people have goofy ideas about war, so the equally goofy shit ukraine is doing doesn't bother them
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@MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf @deprecated_ii Im not talkin about spec ops. Guys are gonna get trained on specialized systems and things like arty spotting and forward observers to call that shit in. Probably some snipers/marksmen and a bunch of shit on terrorism and insurgency.
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@Boomerman @NotImportant @weaf @deprecated_ii Pardon my ignorance on soldiershit but realistically how much would a bunch of Ukies improve in a few months?
The terrorism stuff is a pipe dream for GAYTO, the Russians are better than them at it (see 60s-70s LatAm) and probably at countering it.
My take is those 60k are the last sacrifice. A big suicidal hurra trying to inflict some losses to the Russians but mainly some propaganda issue
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@MechaSilvio @Boomerman @NotImportant @deprecated_ii I don't think they'll put those troops into a single corps or even into divisions. I suspect they'll reinforce existing units with them and expect their training to rub off on the rest of the soldiers within their respective units.
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@MechaSilvio @Boomerman @NotImportant @weaf well it's like putting them through AIT (advanced individual training) where they learn their specialty after basic training
they'll become moderately competent at the core parts of the job but they will still not be very good, and without an experienced group of NCOs and experienced privates/specialists to wrangle them, they're going to be pretty fucked up
I'm not against the idea of standing up a unit all at once, with officers and NCOs and privates all training together from the beginning (NCOs being selected from amongst the enlisted men as training goes on) but that takes years and it's not how western militaries operate
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@MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf @deprecated_ii Itll make a huge difference. Theyve been able to hold out by throwing randos off the street at bahkmut. Trained soldiers are a different animal especially if theyre trained on things that are more than just point rifle and shoot
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@MechaSilvio @Boomerman @weaf @deprecated_ii A few months is still good amount of training. American infantry training is a total 16 weeks.
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@NotImportant @MechaSilvio @Boomerman @weaf yeah but when you go out the other side of infantry OSUT you're still a clueless retard
it takes another year or so at your unit to become an asset instead of a liability. some guys never stop being liabilities
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@deprecated_ii @MechaSilvio @Boomerman @NotImportant @weaf All reports out of Ukraine the last few months back this up. The NATO-trained personnel to date have performed worse than the local vets, and not appreciably better than the militia hastily tossed at the front lines as a speed bump.
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@BobsonDugnuttHB @deprecated_ii @MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf Nato trained by special forces or nato trained in nato countries? Big difference.
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@Boomerman @deprecated_ii @MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf NATO trained in NATO countries and then sent back to Ukraine.
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@BobsonDugnuttHB @Boomerman @MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf I suspect they just do not interface well at all with the local way of doing things
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@BobsonDugnuttHB @deprecated_ii @MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf I saw early on theyd sedn guys for like a month. Thats nit gonna do much. Actual training is very different than readying pigs for the slaughter by pretending you "trained" them for a month
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@BobsonDugnuttHB @deprecated_ii @MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf How many has that been? Everything ive seen says the bulk of those guys are still in britain. They had a few go and come back quickly but this newest batch is supposed to be staying for like 6 months
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@Boomerman @deprecated_ii @MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf Thousands to date, spread amongst various NATO countries. None of them on the 6-month plan, which will probably result in a better end product, in a vacuum.
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@Boomerman @deprecated_ii @MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf Pretty much, yeah
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@BobsonDugnuttHB @deprecated_ii @MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf The NATO strategy is gonna be a big flop though. Ukes just cant hack it even if you gave them years. The capacity just isnt there and american public opinion on these wars is always low. They cant do a draft technically like they did in the past and trying to selective service is gonna make people go nuts. Theyre hurting russia as is their goal but harming itself more in the end.
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@Boomerman @deprecated_ii @MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf Yeah, all the earlier NATO trained forces were on the month plan, and then went back to the front and were chewed up worse than the local regulars.
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@BobsonDugnuttHB @deprecated_ii @MechaSilvio @NotImportant @weaf And they were probably fresh recruits. Basically fodder. A month of training is jack shit.
Weaf :jv::nv:
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