Notices by 🎓 Doc Freemo :jpf: 🇳🇱 (freemo@qoto.org), page 15

@pj @rrb

If someone is smuggling in guns and giving them to people that currently arent legally allowed guns, i think youd find everyone would agree that needs to be prevented.

@rrb @pj

You already have that its just carefully designed to be one way. If you have a gun used in a crime you can track it to its owner. What you cant do is pull up all people in an area that own guns as you coukd with a normal registry.... just as it shoukd be.

@rrb @pj

Ok so just checked... all gu sales in all ststes by dealers (this appesrs to inckude gun shows) require record keeping.

Private sales only requires record keeping in 19 states, though these are demcrat states mostly so thry do represent thr overwhelming majority of the usa population.

I woukd be ok with supporting a federal law that extended the record keeping requirements on gun sales as they currently exist toninckude all private sales.

@DutyBard

Sure, and do you understand why that statistic isnt just irrelevant to the conversation but intellectually dishonest…

I said this elsewhere in a co-thread but ill say it again.

Of course gun deaths are less in countries that ban or restrict guns.. much in the same way that vaccine deaths would be less in any country that bans vaccines. That is an argument people use who are trying to use stats to manipulate people rather than provide a fair and objective argument. The argument for guns is that it prevents non-gun deaths not that it prevents gun deaths. Much as the argument for vaccines is that it prevents non-vaccine related deaths, not for presenting death by vaccine.

@rrb @pj

@rrb @pj

The militia thing was hardly a slave rebellion idea. I mean thr northwas just as well armed and there were concerns about oppressive governemnts. Dont get me wrong slave rebellion was probably a factor too, but it was really a long list of concerns fueling the mentality

@rrb @pj

Fair. I suspect the desire to be armed against a slave rebellion is why today the south is a bit more gun happy… but still doesnt explain why the north was so progun as well.

@pj @rrb

And the whole schizophrenic thing... doesnt matter if you thinknifs a privilage or a right. If you tell people they will no longer have access to guns and the ability tonuse it to protect themselves if thry go seek therapy and happen to get a mental health diagnosis, then leople will avoid therapy... you just made things way worse not better.

@pj @rrb

Because guns are an ewualizer.. a woman without a gun against a man without a gun, thry are on equal footing.

Almost always its the stronger praying on thr weaker. Guns equalize that.

@pj i am not. I am saying it is half as common as lightening to get killed in a school shooting.

@pj @rrb

The issue with gun registration is that one day thr government may become oppressive and make guns illegal and thrn those registrations can be used by an oppessive govt.

The other issue is profiling. Cops might use registrations to target people as suspected and as such owning a gun, even if you never use it, makes you a target of wrongful arrest.

We already have a "one-way" system that is essentially a registrstion. As long as you have a gun or its serial number you can track it back to who owned it, but not the other way around. Assuming it is all legal of course.

@pj @rrb

Also for the record i think the requirement of a permit to drive a car is an i justice as well. It should be a garunteed freedom.

@rrb @pj

That link has no information about record of sales.. talks about percentage that are federally licensed or not, nothing else...

@pj @rrb

Many states dont require boating licenses, works out just fine for the boaters. You also dont need a license to fly an ultralight plane, even with a passanger, works out well there too.

As for high rises, same thing, make sure someone is checking the highrise meets code in its planning and building phase, as long as it does its safe to build regardless of ghe credentials of the person who designed it.

We have countless examples of this sort of stuff being very workable and safe without needing licensing by having other mechanisms that ensure safety.

@pj @rrb

What we know is that gubs arent the solution, but we know they arent the problem either. Banning them in a violent society makes things more violent. Im willing to suspect in a peaceful society banning them or not has no effect.

The solutions lie in changing our environments to be healthy, and improving access to mental health (which by the way is the exact opposite of what woukd haplen kf we toom away gun rights from people who seek therapy and get diagnosed)

@rrb @pj

I think existing liability law could probably handle that well enough... if you have something stolen and were negligent about storage you might have some liability.

That said id be willing to explore it.

My only concern there is

1) the rules for storage cant be prohibitive such as requiring a safe which many people wont have money or access to

2) the user should be allowed to keep it unlocked and without a trigger lock at a minimum while they are home ao in the case of a home invasion thry have quick access to it

One might expect that if you keep a gun at home youd take reasonable precautions if you left town such as security camera or somethibg maybe. As long as the two concerns above are properly balanced i would consider more discussion about ways we could better address this.

@pj @rrb

No the right vs privilage argument is secondary for me... im a scientist i care about what works. What i know is the numbers show almost every time, you ban guns it either has no net benefit or, more kften, causes violent acts, especially rape, to sky rocket.

I support guns because banning them takes lives.

@pj @rrb

No its not the wild west, and in theory polkce shoukd orotect us... but in practice thst makes little sense. Police come when you call them and there is going to be a delay no matter how well funded. You cant even call police if your being jumped or raped most of the time.

In the end its great to talk about ideals and what shoukd be or shouldnt be. But we have to schknowledge reality, and the reality is that in most incidents the police will never be a reliable security.

For example only 46% of violent crimes in general are reported, i suspect much less for rape. Of those reported only 30% even result in an arrest. Its clear from these numbers very very few, if any, rape cases are acted on by police and prevented.

@pj

Yea there is no shortage of examples of guns saving lives, and there are admifditly a lot of examples of them taking lives... the key is figuring out which one is larger.. the problem is we document murder with a gun far more rigerously than we document murder-prevention with a gun.

@DutyBard @rrb

@pj @rrb

My argumebt was only half about that. The other hakf was about profiling, whicb we all know would and is an issue right now.

Having a gun in and of itself, something that is a rigbt, shoukd not be able to be used to generate suspicion, which is the only real ourpose of a register.

Now if you susoect someone because of actual evidence, then you have the right, and can, search the records and lookup based on the serial number.

Its the same reason cops cant look up who is poor in order to create a list of suspects for a robbery.

@DutyBard

Its not the easy access to guns that makes it so rare. Most home invasions in the USA are done by people without guns, largely because if they are robbing your home they are like drug addicted and/or poor and never had the money for a gun.

The reason home invasions in the UK is rare is likely many other factors such as how children are raised or easier access to mental health.

In fact when the UK banned guns violent crimes of all sorts skyrocketed and never really recovered. So from a relative perspective this seems contrary to the facts.

@rrb @pj