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1. Scott Jenson (scottjenson@social.coop)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 05:17:37 JST Scott Jenson

   • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

   @mairin Thanks for chiming in! I agree, my analogy is too limited. I was trying to make a point that is maybe a second level issue. Clearly, as you say, having a bad UX to start is the major issue.

   My point was that "Fixing UX" requires more planning and even tradeoffs and that is just sociologically harder for most #FOSS teams to handle (as it just requires more maturity and process to make those decisions.

   It feels similar to how tech debt creeps in.

   • Scott Jenson (scottjenson@social.coop)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 11:36:48 JST Scott Jenson

     in reply to

     • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

     @mairin I really don't understand your point. If you want to say "UX is hard for everyone" then sure.

     But if you're trying to say "FLOSS is mostly like closed SW but with better motivation" then we disagree.

     FLOSS is built very differently, with a VERY different culture. There are precious few examples of it delivering great UX (and unfortunately many w/ bad UX). Those projects that DO excel, tend to be run more like closed shops: e.g Penpot, Audacity, and Home Assistant. Let's learn from them

   • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh (mairin@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 11:36:49 JST Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

     in reply to

     @scottjenson Ive heard the closed shops are more professional / mature / have it together compared to the bearded hippies in a basement meme but, that's not reality it's just a narrative and who is pushing it? 😉

     Adrian Cochrane repeated this.
   • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh (mairin@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 11:36:50 JST Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

     in reply to

     @scottjenson The broader culture is more than a license sure I grew up in it, but *all* of software suffers from a code/tech-centric culture. Where #FLOSS is actually poised to deliver a superior #UX over proprietary software is the lack of a driving profit motive - meaning #1 users arent the product #2 cross compatibility instead of unnecessary lock-in to a specific ecosystem. If either way is fundamentally flawed towards poor UX its proprietary sw

   • Scott Jenson (scottjenson@social.coop)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 11:36:51 JST Scott Jenson

     in reply to

     • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

     @mairin But #FLOSS is so much more the 'just a license"! There is an entire culture that goes with it, one which, at least statistically, has heavily leaned towards technical concerns and been light on UX concerns.

     To be fair, there are problems with for profit software as well, but you should know better than anyone that UX designers have tried to help OS projects with limited effect. That seems worth discussing.

   • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh (mairin@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 11:36:53 JST Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

     in reply to

     @scottjenson Like in the end FLOSS is a license.... what about the license is at odds with good UX? Is good UX a secret sauce that cant be made openly? I dont think so?

   • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh (mairin@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 11:36:54 JST Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

     in reply to

     @scottjenson i'm uncomfortable with how your language sort of frames this as a fault / lack of maturity / lack of ability to plan etc of the #FLOSS teams... Look at GNOME or Elementary for massive counter-examples. GNOME has folks whove been working on it 20+ years straight....

     I think you're circling something interesting but I dont think concluding FLOSS fundamentally incapable of good UX is supportable

   • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh (mairin@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 13:55:09 JST Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

     in reply to

     @scottjenson I guess the main issue is not everyone makes the same assumptions? I don't think any type of software, FLOSS or not, *always* delivers a superior UX so you're setting an impossible bar. There are also *plenty* of situations where FLOSS does indeed deliver the superior UX (look at mastodon vs twitter right now.)

     Those kind of statements are just unnecessary - you don't need to make statements like that to help.

   • Scott Jenson (scottjenson@social.coop)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 13:55:10 JST Scott Jenson

     in reply to

     • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

     @mairin We would ALL do well to abide by those words.

     Adrian Cochrane repeated this.
   • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh (mairin@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 13:55:11 JST Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

     in reply to

     @scottjenson OK if that was your intention,

     #1 watch the framing / words

     #2 listen :)

   • Scott Jenson (scottjenson@social.coop)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 13:55:12 JST Scott Jenson

     in reply to

     • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

     @mairin I'm not saying that at all.

     I do agree with you that FLOSS is positioned to believer a far superior UX.

     I'm just honestly trying to understand why that doesn't always seem to be case. I'm not trying to 'fix' FLOSS, especially corners of it doesn't want to be fixed. More power to them.

     I'm just trying to help the people that want help.

   • Máirín Ní Dhufaigh (mairin@mastodon.social)'s status on Wednesday, 21-Dec-2022 13:55:13 JST Máirín Ní Dhufaigh

     in reply to

     @scottjenson What I said was more nuanced, which is why it took more words than your oversimplification.

     I'll try to explain another way:

     You're coming at this like FLOSS is at some kind of disadvantage vs. non FLOSS because of its culture. I am saying FLOSS fundamentally better-positioned to deliver a superior UX because its goals align with the users vs. proprietary sw which aligns with the shareholders/etc. and often is at odds with users' best interests.