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1. anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 12:20:03 JST anonymous

   I am considering using ML to make bots for a video game. If you have any suggestions please let me know.

   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 12:20:17 JST Machismo

     in reply to
     @anonymous This seems like a good way to make decent bots.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 12:29:27 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman Is OpenAI cucked? I would like to know before I pick it as it looks like a terrific candidate but I don’t know much about it.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 12:29:59 JST Machismo

     in reply to
     @anonymous No idea. But if you're not running it locally the answer is almost always yes. If it's running in The Cloud™ the answer is definitely yes.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 12:32:01 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman Pretty sure it runs local. But I would need to dig into the code to know for sure. Would be simple to check for standard network headers.

     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:06:27 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman Behold the state of current year “journalism”.

     https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/15/technology/artificial-intelligence-google-bias.html

     Feel free to use an archive site to view it. I would.

     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:06:31 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman No diversity keyword found on their about, and nothing comes up with a simple search, so they look good. Still have to dig into the headers but The Cloud™ isn’t mentioned once or even referenced, so It’s doubtful. It probably exists but you have to implement it yourself which I would never do even in the niggercattle mooed for it.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:07:14 JST Machismo

     in reply to
     @anonymous It's really simple to tell if something is running local or not: Cut off internet and see if it breaks.
     In the case of something like this you can also just listen to your GPU fans.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:08:34 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @lonelyowl @Zerglingman No, like a bot that will play the game. Obviously tweaks would have to be made to make it realistic though.

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   • Owl (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:08:35 JST Owl

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     @anonymous @Zerglingman
     
     By "bots," do you mean like talking characters?
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0svu8WBzeQM
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:08:47 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl Oh that's who the [filtered toot] was.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:11:18 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman I have a program that sets that fans speed to close to (or above) 50C for even mild load. But there’s cutting off the internet too. Honestly don’t think I’ll need to go that far though. While I am working with it I would need to dig into the code anyway to get an idea on how to integrate it so if it has internet headers just check for calls to the internet in otherwise benign functions.

     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:11:28 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl ??

     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:11:29 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman 50%

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:11:48 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl
     blob
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:13:22 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl >filtering a whole post because of yt link Harsh, but fair.

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   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:13:29 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl Nothing of value is lost.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:16:40 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl I invidious-d it and it was just a video about the skyrim chatbots so you’re not wrong.

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   • Owl (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:16:45 JST Owl

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     @anonymous @Zerglingman
     
     It's usually made via reinforcement learning. No cloud stuff is required, you could write the whole thing with just numpy.
     
     https://towardsdatascience.com/how-to-teach-an-ai-to-play-games-deep-reinforcement-learning-28f9b920440a
     https://pythonprogramming.net/q-learning-reinforcement-learning-python-tutorial/
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   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:24:20 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @lonelyowl @Zerglingman I could make my own, and very well might, but I have a horrible tendency to drag my feet. The less steps necessary the better.

     That said, there’s also adding controls for characters and stuff for 3D games, so better to just stick with libs for now.

     I already have one that looks promising, like I said. I’ll look into your links but I don’t think they’re going to tell me much I don’t already know.

     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:25:04 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @lonelyowl @Zerglingman I take that back, the second link was incredibly helpful! Thank you for sharing it. :ablobreach:

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   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:39:33 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl Working with other people’s coding examples makes my head hurt. Not even writing code yet; just trying to wrap my brain around the concept. Still having difficulty understanding that first lesson! Oof. Hopefully it will be easier once I start to dig into the mechanisms myself.

     Machismo likes this.
   • menherahair (menherahair@eientei.org)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:46:40 JST menherahair

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl
     @anonymous @Zerglingman @lonelyowl hell is other people's code
     Machismo likes this.
   • FrailLeaf (frailleaf@ryona.agency)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:46:42 JST FrailLeaf

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • menherahair
     • Owl
     @menherahair @Zerglingman @anonymous @lonelyowl me looking at my yesterday's code
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   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:48:07 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl Either of you work on ML yourselves? I am wondering if it’s better to prioritize getting to and defeating high-value targets (like bosses) or whether it’s better to prioritize defeating any target.

     The benefits of the second I think are immediately apparent. Killing any enemy gives a virtual certainty to kill high value targets, but the drawbacks seem similarly drastic. That is that the bot will just run around killing everything and perhaps run into loops where a baddie spawns, bot kills, new baddie spawns, bot kills, old baddie spawns, etc.

     The second wouldn’t face this drawback, but it’s drawback is it would be very rigid and would need multiple models for different areas, increasing the size requirements drastically.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:48:19 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl Tell it to optimise for score and see what it does?
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:48:48 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl
     @lonelyowl @anonymous Like that sort of consideration is for building static bots that cannot learn.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:49:27 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl How do you mean?

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   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:50:05 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl Like you tell it what the objective is and its inputs and let it try things until it achieves it, and tell it that lower time is better, so after it tries 100 times it copies the things that gave it the 5 lowest times, or something like that.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:58:17 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl I think I am starting to understand. My ultimate goal is to create “human approximating” bots and I think this is where I am getting caught up. I am trying to do too much at once at the moment.

     I was thinking of working on movement first and not mindlessly walking into walls and working from there?

     The biggest issue I am running into in my head is what to make as objectives. Waypoints I guess. Then do I save this training data or would that muddy the waters when I inevitably work it towards more complex goals.

     Ack. I should probably stop theorizing. Too tired and I haven’t even started yet.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Owl (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:58:25 JST Owl

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     @Zerglingman @anonymous
     
     Yeah, that's the point of reinforcement learning. You define some simple reward function, and the algorithm will learn how to maximize it. For example, the further player will walk through level without dying, the bigger the reward, and the algorithm will decide what to do with enemies, who to kill in first place and how, or maybe it will prefer to just speedrun the whole thing without murders.
     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 13:58:36 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @lonelyowl @anonymous Then it discovers bhopping.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 14:02:16 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @lonelyowl @Zerglingman Can you set multiple rewards that have equal weight? Like for example gaining experience points and making it through a level the fastest way possible? I should probably just read more on the subject, but the way you put it helped everything click in my head just now. Perhaps you’ll be more insightful than an article on the subject.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 14:03:47 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl No reason why you can't.
     And worst-case, you just say score is like (final_xp-starting_xp)-(duration_in_secs).
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 14:09:40 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl I think I am finally understanding now. Years of linear programming have created sort of a “goal rot” in my brain I think, where everything needs to come to X conclusion. Whereas ML (Q in particular) doesn’t need me to think like this. Simply all that’s really needed from me is to give it goals and actions and let it do it’s thing. I don’t really need to think about how to get there or how it will get there.

     Though in a game where revival is slow even if the bot is instantly (in game code at least) respawned, it will take quite some time to get there.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Owl (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 14:11:18 JST Owl

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @anonymous @Zerglingman

     Like for example gaining experience points and making it through a level the fastest way possible?

     Yep! Just keep it in mind that the algorithm will maximize the reward function, so it is possible that it will figure out that just speedrunning without harvesting any experience is still the easiest way to do so. This thing is used to find the best strategies to maximize the reward in the first place, not to mimic certain behavior. If you wish to make it mimic certain human-player like behavior, i believe it’s also possible, but will require some tinkering.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Owl (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 14:14:11 JST Owl

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl
     @anonymous @Zerglingman
     
     Like, making experience more or less important, or maybe changing the reward function in the middle of learning process (some dude from YT did just that when tried to make ai bot for trackmania)
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   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Wednesday, 27-Dec-2023 14:16:27 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @lonelyowl @Zerglingman In particular I am trying to come up with a bot that you can PvP with ultimately, which would be really rad.

     I think I am simply putting too much thought into it, a problem I have had with ML since I first learned of it. Having had it explained to me in a way that I can better understand has opened my eyes to my critical error in the first place. This is not something I have to baby.

     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 11:33:44 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @lonelyowl @Zerglingman So I think I’ve settled into a comfortable paradigm in my head, and learned everything I can from reading though I did confuse myself again trying to read into it. I love when that happens and now it’s time to focus on trial and error. I think once I’ve got movement down the rest should come naturally especially because the code-base I’ll have to work with will be rather minimal in the end. At least that’s my expectations going into it.

     On a bit of a side note, I was looking into using python code in other languages because I may need it, and figured I’d find a native language version for a different coding language. I look into it and find it uses Python wrappers. :angryglitch:

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   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 11:47:15 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl
     blob
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 11:54:41 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl
     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl >tfw you do a bunch of research into something cool only to find out it's no better than a far easier to understand thing.
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   • Owl (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:00:23 JST Owl

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     @anonymous @Zerglingman
     
     Maybe. Cs 1.6 had pretty decent pvp bots long before anyone tried to teach neural networks to play games
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   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:02:26 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @lonelyowl @anonymous Yeah, you can write specialised stuff and it will almost always be better.
     Although in FPS they tend to just aimhack so "good" is debatable.
     Teaching a neural network is less effort on your part, and more adaptable across games.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:09:03 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl Mostly the less effort part, but all the moving parts confuse me. As you can see I barely made it through “use a ML library”. Let alone figuring out how to execute proper bots in games.

     I’m hoping my laziness will ultimately translate into a bot that can be used across multiple games.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:09:35 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl Use a neural net to make an RTS bot that isn't a cheating bastard and isn't a dumbfuck retard in the lategame.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:11:20 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl That actually sounds pretty cool but apparently it’s been done already >https://www.newscientist.com/article/2221840-deepminds-starcraft-playing-ai-beats-99-8-per-cent-of-human-gamers/ tried to find a not gay publication. sorry if it’s actually gay

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   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:11:59 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl >beats 99.8% of humans
     So it needs to be handicapped. Which may not be difficult.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:12:28 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl Just turn down greediness. Probably at max.

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   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:13:56 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl Now that I think about it the PvP portion would be pretty hard too, depending on the game. Then add on top making it realistic.

     This way could potentially solve the “bots in open world” games problem and you could actually feel like you have a living world. Hell someone some day might even implement chat AI and then you never have to play with another nigger ever again.

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   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:14:41 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl It's pretty trivial to make open worlds that don't suck already, with procedural generation. Which is different from *random* generation, which tends to get bland after 10 minutes.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:22:15 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl I like procedurally generated things, sometimes

     Let me put it this way: imagine your favorite MMO. Now imagine dropping a template into a private server instead of having to waste potentially thousands of hours making a bot specific to that game that you’re unlikely to ever reuse. Now imagine this for every open world game.

     Would slash the need for “realism” (which for some games is mandatory :vomit: ) in private servers. This would in turn encourage more of them.

     Obviously people should demand more single player games. In the meantime, and for nostalgia’s sake, we could potentially have drop-and-train bots.

     I don’t know I think that’s pretty cool.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:23:14 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl That seems pretty cool.
     The problem with that is that every game would interface differently, so you'd have to do up the proto/bindings separately for every game.
     But once you're done with that, if you've plugged them all in right, the bot should just work™, and be able to adapt to the game-specific differences within time.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:23:22 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Suzu
     • Owl

     @Suzu @Zerglingman @lonelyowl You have to consider the nigger-to-talent ratio though.

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   • Suzu (suzu@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:23:23 JST Suzu

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl
     @Zerglingman @anonymous @lonelyowl https://youtu.be/lC4YLMLar5I
     
     Pretty interesting video related to the matter. They managed to write a pretty decent proceduraly generated universe in 22kb for Elite in 1984.
     There's no excuse for half assed randomly generated shit or boring empty open worlds now, 40 years later, with all the advancements in technology and processing power.
   • Owl (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:23:34 JST Owl

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     @Zerglingman @anonymous
     
     > It's pretty trivial to make open worlds that don't suck already, with procedural generation.
     
     I rather disagree, i've heard a lot of criticism of procedural openworlds from both gamers and game designers that they start to feel empty and repetitive pretty quickly. I won't say you cant create a procedural world that will be interesting, but it's not "trivial".
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   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:24:16 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @lonelyowl @anonymous It actually is trivial, it's just that most game designers are shit, especially the ones with large budgets to actually produce a 3d game.
     You just have to implement memory/knowledge systems, and they're not that hard.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:28:10 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl Indeed. There would need to be tweaking. The hope is it would ultimately be minor.

     I also feel the need to say I hate the death of private servers right as these fucking “always online” bullshit shovelware crap started to come onto the scene. There were some games that are basically lost to me now because of it, and many more I will never be able to even decide if I like them or not because I refuse to pay for this model.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:28:41 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl I just want a copy of Wushu's server files. The game isn't even bad, it's just that Snail are absolutely dogshit game masters.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:30:06 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl Lessons in Humanity: Lesson 30: 99% of people who run servers are terrible at running servers.

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   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:32:27 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl Well yeah, it turns out it's actually hard. :^)
     Anyway, I actually suspect Wushu changed hands (internally) during 3rd inner era. Both dev and publish. Particularly after 4th inner, there was a notable drop in dev quality (translation quality was never that good, but it also got much worse; as in some lines just didn't get translated at all).
     But people did manage to dump the strings files and load mods so that's fixable in a private context; we can just distribute a client with fixed strings.
   • Owl (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:35:28 JST Owl

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     @anonymous @Zerglingman
     
     I'm afraid you will need to create a new model for every game, because they all have different states and different actions to predict, hence different input-output layers. But i personally haven't experimented with this kind of models as i'm more of image generator person, so i have no strong opinion on this
     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:35:51 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @lonelyowl @anonymous Train it on multiple games to begin with so it doesn't fit to one in particular.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:36:04 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl One other bonus I completely forgot to mention is the boost this would give to bots in games where the PvP is far superior to PvE (shooters and Diablo-style in particular). But this of course assumes people don’t demand single player and on top of that don’t demand single player bots.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:36:16 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl What's the point of a singleplayer bot lol
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:36:28 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl
     @lonelyowl @anonymous Like I know 0-player games exist but I don't enjoy them.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:37:29 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @lonelyowl @Zerglingman Not necessarily. All you’d really need to do is change state and action values to fit the game. You may also need to change some minor operating factors so it can actually do stuff.

     But again this is more of a dream and I haven’t even gotten started yet so I don’t know how feasible it is.

     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:37:56 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl Or just have the people who use it create the databases using the game they want to bot-ify.

     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:39:25 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl Well Diablo would be one, especially Diablo 2 where some content is locked behind multiplayer restrictions. RTS’, strategy. I could probably think of more if I had to.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:39:42 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl That's still pvp though?
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:40:39 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl ??

     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:46:12 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl I don’t understand :acelevy:

     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:51:35 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl In essence, I am suggesting what RL models already do, but for much larger and more complex games. Something no one has been willing to dip their toes into yet (far as I can tell) probably because of copyright™ concerns.

     My ultimate goal I suppose is to reduce burdens on mod makers while also disincentivizing always-online bullshit. Maybe this is a bit too much power to use, again I haven’t even gotten started yet, but I still think a goal worth striving towards.

     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:53:03 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl Well I am not sure what you mean but I think you mean these are all games you play against another person or bot? I suppose in my head I was thinking PvB = PvE. In any case games like Diablo would still benefit, and shooters as well. It could also lead the way to more realistic environments and mods in games in general.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 12:53:48 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl Yeah if a bot is standing in for a player, that's pvp.
     A "singleplayer bot" would be one that plays a singleplayer game.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:11:37 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl I suppose I disagree. Not so much on the base premise but that it’s not always the case. For example there’s a single player to StarCraft, but the multiplayer might as well be a completely different game. However for StarCraft at least you can add bots to the game, as a stand in for players. Which at least implies both were meant for people to play by themselves at least in theory.

     I could just be tired though. :blobsleepless:

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   • Owl (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:11:54 JST Owl

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     @anonymous @Zerglingman
     
     By the way, after you mentioned starcraft i thought "there should be a dataset for it" and indeed, it exists 😀
     
     https://github.com/TorchCraft/StarData
     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:11:59 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @lonelyowl @Zerglingman >The full dataset after compression is 365 GB :jokersurprise:

     I have to be honest though if I had the space for that I’d totally use it for custom maps.

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   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:12:06 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @lonelyowl @Zerglingman What keywords did you use to find that by the way?

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   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:12:26 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl Probably just "starcraft ai dataset"
   • Owl (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:14:25 JST Owl

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     @anonymous @Zerglingman
     
     Just "starcraft dataset", or "starcraft player actions dataset". There are already shitload of different datasets of different stuff, i suppose it wouldn't be hard to find one for your game if it's popular.
     
     Here is one for dota2:
     https://www.kaggle.com/datasets/arpan129/dota-2-the-international-complete-dataset/data
     
     The only stuff i've had a hard time to find is anything nsfw, on the past job we tried to create an automatic filter of "hatefull content" and there were absolutely no labeled data of corpses and blood 🥺
     Machismo likes this.
   • supersid (supersid333@gearlandia.haus)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:14:58 JST supersid

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     @anonymous @Zerglingman Pretty sure Chat GPT is a closed source blackbox that you feed inputs in and it gives incredibly filtered outputs.
     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:15:05 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @lonelyowl @Zerglingman >no labeled data of corpses and blood prudes

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   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:16:52 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @lonelyowl @anonymous Just use pictures of pomegranates.
     blob
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:18:41 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @Zerglingman @lonelyowl >labeling fruit as gore :alexjonesrarrr:

     Machismo likes this.
     Machismo repeated this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:19:08 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @anonymous @lonelyowl Don't be an asswipe
   •  (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:19:41 JST 

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl
     @Zerglingman @anonymous @lonelyowl
     No pomegranates [O4QR7aFPZiI].w…
     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:19:54 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • supersid

     @supersid333 @Zerglingman Yeah OpenAI is totally cucked. The model I settled on now is not owned by OpenAI as far as I can tell, but it shouldn’t be too hard to make a switch if I have to.

     Machismo likes this.
   • cream queen (creamqueen@clubcyberia.co)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:20:09 JST cream queen

     in reply to

     • 
     • Machismo
     • Owl
     @mint @Zerglingman @anonymous @lonelyowl this video lives in my head
      and Machismo like this.
   • Owl (lonelyowl@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:22:00 JST Owl

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     @anonymous @Zerglingman
     
     > train a classifier of gore on fruits
     > launch it in production
     > harvest the reports of false negatives and false positives
     > fine-tune it on human feedback
     
     That’s a great plan walter, that’s fucking ingenious if i understand it correctly. it’s a swiss fucking watch! 😀
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:22:29 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Owl
     @lonelyowl @anonymous NO TEST LIKE A LIVE TEST
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:23:42 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Owl

     @lonelyowl @Zerglingman IDK fruits are pretty sexy :1000:

     Machismo likes this.
   • CEO of Monoeye Dating (ceo_of_monoeye_dating@bae.st)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:26:52 JST CEO of Monoeye Dating

     in reply to
     @anonymous AI/ML for bot behavior in real-time video games is expensive. The underlying operation is matrix multiplication, which is usually O(N^3) and it uses GPU resources, the combination of which should make you piss yourself.
     
     I'd strongly recommend avoiding this if at all possible.
     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:31:28 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • CEO of Monoeye Dating

     @ceo_of_monoeye_dating I got this 5 times for some reason.

     What if the underlying database is relatively small (lets say <100MB) and the operations rather minimal (like do thing record thing repeat). Is that still really bad?

     Like no real time bot training. More like train-then-use.

   • CEO of Monoeye Dating (ceo_of_monoeye_dating@bae.st)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 13:31:28 JST CEO of Monoeye Dating

     in reply to
     @anonymous You got this response 5 different times for a reason. The reason is that it's a bad idea.
     
     I'd assumed you were just doing inference when I said that.
     
     What information are you allowing the bot to have access to?
     Machismo likes this.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 14:51:14 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • CEO of Monoeye Dating

     @ceo_of_monoeye_dating Alright. Well I figure I’ve put in the time learning it, might as well at least try it. Since neither of us knows just how bad it will ultimately be. Shouldn’t take me very long to implement.

     I have a pretty puny computer when it comes to computational power, so if it doesn’t work for me likely wouldn’t work for others.

     And worse case I just get started on a traditional bot. Having access to raw game data should make my bot relatively easy to make, at least a dumb bot.

     This will also let me peer behind the looking glass of ML, hopefully learn something.

     All in all a good learning experience if nothing else.

   • CEO of Monoeye Dating (ceo_of_monoeye_dating@bae.st)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 14:51:15 JST CEO of Monoeye Dating

     in reply to
     @anonymous No clue - my impression is that these tools only get used for games with one such bot at most. Although it's only adjacent to my area of expertise, I'm aware that it is a thing that gets done rarely and this is why.
   • CEO of Monoeye Dating (ceo_of_monoeye_dating@bae.st)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 14:51:16 JST CEO of Monoeye Dating

     in reply to
     @anonymous If you're dead set on using some sort of ML, I'd suggest you dial the tech back like 3 decades.
     
     Restrict the amount of information it gets and use a Markov Chain.
   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 14:51:16 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • CEO of Monoeye Dating

     @ceo_of_monoeye_dating I’m not deadset really. If it is that bad of an idea, regardless of how little it needs to process at any one time, it would be far better to simply make a traditional bot. I was just wondering, given how little I expect it to need access to and how little it needs to ultimately do, if it was still a terrible idea.

     Seems it is.

     MDK is markov chain isn’t it? Q-Learning. I was also thinking of going observational but that’s even more intense so doubtful it’s a good idea.

     There was a program for RL Q-Learning which used something called sweep learning, and supposedly it’s much faster as the expense of static resources like memory (at least that was my understanding at the time).

     Any idea if any of these newer things are better or worse?

   • anonymous (anonymous@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Monday, 01-Jan-2024 14:51:17 JST anonymous

     in reply to

     • CEO of Monoeye Dating

     @ceo_of_monoeye_dating I have access to the underlying database in this case, so it’s getting access to raw game data.

     >you got this 5 times for a reason are you saying you TL raped me ON PURPOSE?! :alexjonesdemons: