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1. THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:07:38 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

   There was an anecdote from someone working at Microsoft in the early 2000s. The story says, Microsoft Office code due to legacy reasons stemming from the 90s was incredibly fragile and building it was a no easy feat. Office team had a bunch of carefully maintained build servers with carefully controlled version of Windows, MSVC compiler, and other software. Whenever a new build server was needed, they simply made a copy from an existing one (literally, copying the HDD contents) rather than install a system from scratch.

   I heard this story from someone in my uni and I used to laugh at it, because surely having something like this today would be totally ludicrous. Now I see people use Docker and I don't laugh any more.

   • , luithe and niuulianov like this.
   • Machismo repeated this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:08:24 JST Machismo

     in reply to
     @icon_of_computational_sin Docker is for motherfuckers that don't have package management
     http://michael.orlitzky.com/./articles/motherfuckers_need_package_management.xhtml
   • THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:09:24 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman motherfuckers who don't have package management is the majority of L'Eunuchs users out there.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:09:24 JST Machismo

     in reply to
     @icon_of_computational_sin yeah lmao, pkgbuild go real brrrrrrrrrrrrrr
   • EdBoatConnoisseur (edboatconnoisseur@bae.st)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:13:31 JST EdBoatConnoisseur

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     @Zerglingman @icon_of_computational_sin archtrannyism and it's consequences
     Machismo likes this.
   • Pawlicker (purpcat@clubcyberia.co)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:14:28 JST Pawlicker

     in reply to
     @icon_of_computational_sin just wait till you learn about the Excel 97 Screwdriver
     https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20191119-00/?p=103115
      likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:18:10 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • EdBoatConnoisseur
     @EdBoatConnoisseur @icon_of_computational_sin What consequences? Manjaro? lol I believe that
     Arch certainly has an evangelism reputation, but 1) I've barely seen evidence of it, and 2) honestly it's good enough to warrant it. People bitch at me all the time for running arch but like... It has never failed. I have never had problems of the scale that ubuntu subjects me to every time I have to work with it.
     The worst situation I've had with arch has been two packages that need to update in step in the AUR, so I have to uninstall one of them to let the other update, then reinstall the dependent package.
     Which I probably could have circumvented with some flag instead, come to think of it, but it was easier to just do it that way, and nothing is lost.
   •  (mint@ryona.agency)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:19:02 JST 

     in reply to

     • Pawlicker
     @PurpCat @icon_of_computational_sin There's a rumor that mail.ru servers used to run on Windows and crash a lot, so one of admins salvaged a Unix server from scrap parts and glued a needle to its CD-ROM, then placed it next to main server so that when the drive opens, it would push the reset button.
   • THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:20:45 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman same thing.

     Look, the problem isn't in that package management software is inadequate. It certainly is, but the roots of the problem are much deeper. If you want an apt metaphor, trying to package software for L'Eunuchs and other Eunuchs systems today can be described as trying to build a castle out of slightly dried week-old diarrhoea while your arms have been replaced with limp dicks. Did you see this movie called Edward Penishands? There's a beautiful scene were the titular character tries to eat pasta, except he has dicks for hands. This is what the entire modern package management reminds me of (see the pic attached).

     More seriously, we are still suffering from the consequences of Bazaar that was so praised upon just a couple of decades earlier. Turns out, Bazaar cannot replace beautifully designed Cathedrals. Not only that, it leads to the unholy disaster that is the army of awfully educated people called "software engineers" we have now. These people aren't stupid by any means, mind you, and they could've created beautiful robust software systems. But instead what we have is webshit and docker.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:20:57 JST Machismo

     in reply to
     @icon_of_computational_sin Substantiate or GTFO.
   • THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:21:53 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman ask your questions. I failed my telepathy class.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:24:28 JST Machismo

     in reply to
     @icon_of_computational_sin You're starting to sound like a nigger.
     You're the one making accusations about package management not being good, but it is. If you don't have makepkg/pkgbuild, then yeah, that's a problem. But you can have that. It exists, and it's even being ported to other distros (LURE).
     So... What's actually wrong with package management? Sounds like a skill issue to me.
   • THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:24:43 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman i glanced through the post and the guy seems pretty retarded.

     For one:
     > Cabal, who can install a package but doesn't know how to uninstall it afterwards.

     Cabal developers have repeatedly stated that Cabal isn't a package manager. It isn't supposed to create packages. Anyone who uses Cabal as a package manager has probably failed an IQ test. All Cabal does is populates a sandbox with dependencies for your build.

     The same is probably true for other language-specific tools he described, like Cargo.

     Machismo likes this.
   • THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:26:22 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman
     >It isn't supposed to create packages.

     to manage packages, sorry. My bad.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:26:44 JST Machismo

     in reply to
     @icon_of_computational_sin Can confirm that the standard for python and node is to use the language-specific package manager, I believe it is also the standard for rust. In all of these cases it is a mistake.
     I am not familiar with cabal at all, but I fully expect it is being used as a package manager too.
     So... If it is not a package manager, then yes, I would call it a bad package manager.
   • THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:27:16 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman most traditional package managers fail when you need to have more than one version of a particular library installed. They don't allow installing software without root permissions. They don't allow local sandboxes, because all software must be installed according to man hier.

     This is strictly about tools like deb/rpm/pacman/whatever freebsd has. Nix and Guix solve some of these problems, for one.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:32:24 JST Machismo

     in reply to
     @icon_of_computational_sin Yes, I am interested in the idea of being able to install multiple versions of a package. I think that most of what's needed for it is already in place in arch (I won't speak of other distros, but I think the things I am looking at are, at least, linux-standard).
     
     >They don't allow installing software without root permissions. They don't allow local sandboxes, because all software must be installed according to man hier.
     Well, these two go hand-in-hand, and pacman DOES support the latter (though I don't know how to use it), but apparently not the former:
     yun-wuxin:[wisknort]:~/temp$ pacman -Sr . inxi
     error: you cannot perform this operation unless you are root.
     yun-wuxin:[wisknort]:~/temp$ sudo pacman -Sr . inxi
     [sudo] password for wisknort:
     error: failed to initialize alpm library:
     (root: ., dbpath: ./var/lib/pacman/)
     could not find or read directory
     
     I'll grant that it probably should.
     I am somewhat interested in nix, but after lurking their matrix room for a while, I am less interested. It sounds like a good premise but it seems in practice that it's just another way to overcomplicate things... I ought to try it out for myself sometime.
   • THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:32:28 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman they aren't package managers. You can repeat that a few times to get the idea. All these tools are supposed to do is to help you build your project. You must never use them to install software that you will actually use in your system.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:33:07 JST Machismo

     in reply to
     @icon_of_computational_sin AND YET SOFTWARE SHIPS LIKE THIS
     CONSTANTLY
     BECAUSE MOTHERFUCKERS NEED PACKAGE MANAGEMENT
   • THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:34:31 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman people who ship software like this are dumbasses and need to be kicked in the balls. This fact doesn't make these tools bad, because these tools are designed to do a very specific job and they actually do it just fine, for the most part.

     Machismo likes this.
   • THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:37:01 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman welp.. i've been running nixos as my main system for the past 5 years and it's been nice. Can't say I want to use any other distro now. Local development sandboxes with nix-shell are literally godsend. Imagine, being able to work on a project while using whatever libraries you want from any language without affecting the rest of the system in any way.

     Machismo likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:39:49 JST Machismo

     in reply to
     @icon_of_computational_sin Fair enough. This is the sort of thing that made me interested in it in the first place, because that does sound nice; though in practice I do this anyway, because any package I have installed for development only tends to just not interfere with anything else. I am the sort of person that will look at you in confusion if you suggest developing against an old version of anything. Obviously I will update my software to adapt to changes in its dependencies. In general, I assume that updates are released for a good reason, and if I discover otherwise, I throw it straight into the bin.
   • THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:44:12 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman it's not just about developing against an old version. It's also about developing against software built with different flags or other configuration options than you have in your system. Debugging shit, unoptimised builds, that kind of stuff. And when I'm done, I can just run `nix-collect-garbage` and all of those sandboxes will be purged like it never happened.

     Machismo likes this.
   • THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD (icon_of_computational_sin@mstdn.starnix.network)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 01:46:15 JST THE MARTYR OF BUTLERIAN JIHAD

     in reply to

     • Machismo

     @Zerglingman also, funny thing about that article you linked.

     >Something about a carrot and a stick: if you're doing development in e.g. Ruby or Haskell, come give Gentoo (Prefix) a try. We don't have Rubygems hell or Cabal hell here—everything just works. Although, you'll probably want to use the Ruby overlay or Haskell overlay to get the most up-to-date packages.

     The joke is, I used to be one of the committers to the Gentoo Haskell overlay (i used gentoo before nixos). Most people who worked on it switched to NixOS as well.

     Machismo likes this.
   • EdBoatConnoisseur (edboatconnoisseur@bae.st)'s status on Sunday, 29-Oct-2023 04:13:07 JST EdBoatConnoisseur

     in reply to
     @icon_of_computational_sin and then there's truly unreal shit like this...
     d04e1b6763117bf9465e66905f9f36b8838abe7239db1f7a2c61af500e9288ec.png