Conversation

Notices

1. Preston Werner (pjw@fediphilosophy.org)'s status on Saturday, 07-Oct-2023 23:28:58 JST Preston Werner

   Hi all, I been living in Jerusalem for 7 years, politically active for 4. There are many people who understand much better what is going on in Israel/Palestine right now as well as its context, but maybe you, reading this, don't know such a person.

   Feel free to ask any questions that you might have for someone on the ground, and I will either answer them or find an answer from someone who would know.

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: likes this.
   • Machismo repeated this.
   • Mykse (mykse@poa.st)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:05:26 JST Mykse

     in reply to
     @pjw holocaust didn't happen
     hamas stay winning
     Machismo and luithe repeated this.
   • Ghast (ghast@liberdon.com)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:05:41 JST Ghast

     in reply to

     @pjw Totally unbiased, certainly.

   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:06:04 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Ghast
     @pjw @ghast TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     TOTAL KIKEL DEATH
     luithe likes this.
   • Preston Werner (pjw@fediphilosophy.org)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:06:05 JST Preston Werner

     in reply to

     • Ghast

     @ghast
     I'm a leftist, I am engaged in pro-Palestinian activism. So no, it wouldn't be unbiased.
     A quick scroll through your profile reveals that you are an antisemite who is happy to "see Jewish civilians slaughtered". Blocked.

   • Preston Werner (pjw@fediphilosophy.org)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:09:42 JST Preston Werner

     in reply to

     • Racs
     • Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛

     @racs @useless_idiot
     Ah I took a look at your profile and I see that you are also celebrating the death of Israeli civilians. Blocked. Stop making Pro-Palestinian activists look like a bunch of antisemitic assholes, thanks.

     Machismo and luithe repeated this.
   • Racs (racs@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:09:42 JST Racs

     in reply to

     • Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛
     @pjw @useless_idiot
     luithe likes this.
   • Racs (racs@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:09:43 JST Racs

     in reply to

     • Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛
     @pjw @useless_idiot It's terrible, but the violence that happened to the Israeli civilians are just part and parcel of living in a multicultural society. Israel would be well served to remember that a global society comes with certain challenges and we must all work together to ensure a broader integration of Palestinians into Israeli society so that hate doesn't win.
   • Racs (racs@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:09:44 JST Racs

     in reply to

     • Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛
     @pjw @useless_idiot I feel sorry for the real victims of this attack, all the Moderate Palestinians, who will now face increased prejudice. The important thing is to not let hate win.
   • Preston Werner (pjw@fediphilosophy.org)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:09:44 JST Preston Werner

     in reply to

     • Racs
     • Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛

     @racs @useless_idiot

     Palestinians will face a lot of violence in the coming days, both institutional and vigilante. It is as foreseeable as it is tragic.

     But I feel *very* uncomfortable with you suggesting that the Israeli civilians who have been killed and kidnapped are somehow not 'real victims', and I'd ask you to maybe rethink that framing, especially if/when you are talking to someone who spent a chunk of the day in a bomb shelter making sure friends in the south were ok.

   • Preston Werner (pjw@fediphilosophy.org)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:09:45 JST Preston Werner

     in reply to

     • Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛

     @useless_idiot
     Unsolicited addition: Rocket attack based conflict between Gaza and Israel is saddeningly common, happening almost every year.
     What is so unique about this morning's attack is the border breach. Hamas broke through the border fence, and dozens of gunmen invaded several Jewish villages near the border of Gaza. Many hostages have been taken into Gaza - it is unclear how many right now, the army seems to have censored much reporting on this issue for the moment. Hamas claims that they have also kidnapped several IDF soldiers.

     This is something that is incomprehensible to the Israeli public, who has been hearing for years and years about the technological wonders of the border wall between Gaza and Israel, which should have theoretically caught this breach immediately and not only did not, but left villages surrounding Gaza completely unprotected, with no army presence.

   • Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛ (useless_idiot@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:09:46 JST Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛

     in reply to

     @pjw

     Thanks! Did any rockets fall on Jerusalem? What about Tel Aviv? Any talk about mobilization?

   • Preston Werner (pjw@fediphilosophy.org)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:09:46 JST Preston Werner

     in reply to

     • Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛

     @useless_idiot
     I'm not sure exactly what you mean by mobilization, but the army reserves have been called up, and the "Brothers in Arms" group, which had been protesting Netanyahu's judicial reform proposal by refusing to show up for reserve duty, has called off their strike and asked everyone to show up for reserve duty.

   • Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛ (useless_idiot@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:09:47 JST Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛

     in reply to

     @pjw

     Is there fighting in Jerusalem?

   • Preston Werner (pjw@fediphilosophy.org)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:09:47 JST Preston Werner

     in reply to

     • Useless Idiot 🇳🇱 🥀⌛

     @useless_idiot
     There were clashes in East Jerusalem earlier today, but nothing like what is going on near Gaza, more like a small riot, less like a military invasion.

     Right now, at least West Jerusalem feels very calm, after a morning full of rocket sirens every 10-15 minutes. I was in the East during the morning - it was very calm where I was, but now and then you'd hear stun grenades in the distance.

   • pyrate : sleigh captain (pyrate@nicecrew.digital)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:12:53 JST pyrate : sleigh captain

     in reply to

     • Mykse
     holocaust is a spook
     luithe likes this.
   • Machismo (zerglingman@freespeechextremist.com)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:13:34 JST Machismo

     in reply to

     • Ghast
     • Leyonhjelm
     @Leyonhjelm @ghast @pjw No he spoke correctly. He's admitting to being biased.
     luithe likes this.
   • Leyonhjelm (leyonhjelm@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:13:35 JST Leyonhjelm

     in reply to

     • Ghast
     @pjw
     
     > I'm a leftist, I am engaged in pro-Palestinian activism.
     
     > So no, it wouldn't be unbiased.
     
     Pick one
     
     @ghast
     luithe likes this.
   • Leyonhjelm (leyonhjelm@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 00:14:11 JST Leyonhjelm

     in reply to

     • Machismo
     • Ghast
     @Zerglingman
     
     You're right, I misread it
     
     @pjw @ghast
     luithe and Machismo like this.
   • Christi Junior (christijunior@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 01:36:57 JST Christi Junior

     in reply to
     @pjw Remember, Diversity Is Our Strength, open your hearts and open your borders :gigachad_taliban:
     luithe likes this.
   • William A. Ferguson 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 (william@genderheretics.xyz)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 01:38:54 JST William A. Ferguson 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

     in reply to

     • Cousin_Martha_Corey
     Most of these so-called "Palestinians" are themselves Egyptian and Jordanian as they hold the passports.
   • luithe (luithe@varishangout.net)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 01:38:54 JST luithe

     in reply to

     • Cousin_Martha_Corey
     • William A. Ferguson 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
     @william @pjw @Cousin_Isobel let them in Judean, Israel culture is changing through the years, you must be more accepting of foreigners coming in and let in immigrants and open borders for Israel :jew:
   • Cousin_Martha_Corey (cousin_isobel@spinster.xyz)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 01:38:55 JST Cousin_Martha_Corey

     in reply to

     @pjw Thanks for offering to answer questions.

     I have studied this issue very little. What I would like to know is:

     a) What would the Israeli government like Palestinians to do? (E.g., where does the government want them to go?)

     and

     b) If a Palestinian wanted to move from what I suppose are called the “occupied territories” (the Gaza strip and the West Bank) to the middle of Jerusalem – get an apartment, get a job, etc., and just live like an Israeli citizen – could he or she do that? If not, and if Israel says that these areas are part of Israel, why can these people (those who were born on land that Israel claims) not move freely and have all the normal benefits of living in Israel?

   • Preston Werner (pjw@fediphilosophy.org)'s status on Sunday, 08-Oct-2023 01:38:55 JST Preston Werner

     in reply to

     • Cousin_Martha_Corey

     @Cousin_Isobel

     As for (a). The Israeli government is a parliamentary system. The government in power contains roughly three factions (though its 5 parties).

     Faction 1 - Netanyahu and his party. Look, Netanyahu at this point just wants to cling to power. I think historically his view has been to try as long as possible to keep the status quo - not annexing the West Bank, but not removing any settlements either. Slowly growing settlements in line with a 'facts on the ground' strategy. When speaking with Israelis Netanyahu has historically said there will never be a Palestinian state on his watch. With Americans, he nominally supports a two-state solution. I think he is happy to just kick the can down the road.

     Faction 2 - Haredim (Ultra-Orthodox) parties. Historically, they didn't care so much about the Palestinian issue. They were looking out primarily for their own voter base. In recent years they seem to have become more hawkish on Palestine, because they have become increasingly tied up with Netanyahu, and more and more Haredim are settlers (not necessarily for ideological reasons, but because it is often cheap and Haredi communities trend lower SES).

     Faction 3 - The fascists. I think it's clear that this group wants to deport all the Palestinians at best, to somewhere like Jordan. In recent years they have softened how they talk about it, speaking about loyalty pledges or some such, but I think everyone knows the score, and seemingly with every conflict they gain more and more support.