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Ardainian Hebrew Israelite (ardainianright@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 13:33:03 JST Ardainian Hebrew Israelite
@opphunter88 @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean
I don't know where it says Sola Fides or Sola Scriptura in the Bible. The Gospels very frequently reference branches that do not bear fruit as being bundled up and cast into the fire with respect of the necessity of works, and while sacred scripture is considered good and important for teaching and correction, it never says that all Christian knowledge and understanding is contained within the Bible.

In conversation about a year ago from detroitriotcity.com permalink
- I am just normal /k/orean :verified: (justnormalkorean@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 13:36:16 JST I am just normal /k/orean :verified:
  in reply to
  @ArdainianRight @kf01 @mushroom_soup @opphunter88 @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel While not all good things come from within the Holy Word, it's best to not stray from the Scriptures very far.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
  
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- Ardainian Hebrew Israelite (ardainianright@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 13:40:00 JST Ardainian Hebrew Israelite
  in reply to
  @justnormalkorean @kf01 @mushroom_soup @opphunter88 @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel
  The idea behind the formal Church hierarchy and teachings is to regulate stuff like that and uphold tradition. As far as I can tell the Church teachings are consistently at least compatible with the Bible, and usually the stuff Protestants complain about are based on misunderstandings.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
- Ardainian Hebrew Israelite (ardainianright@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 13:53:15 JST Ardainian Hebrew Israelite
  in reply to
  @opphunter88 @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean
  Not sure how indulgences and purgatory are contrary to Scripture, even if they aren't really touched on in detail. The selling of indulgences is obviously a corruption and has been recognized as such by the Church, but indulgences as a concept are simply special graces bestowed by the Church for those who perform certain devotions or good deeds, as an extension of their authority from Christ that whatever they bind or loose on Earth shall be bound or loosed in heaven. And purgatory is a way to reconcile God's justice and mercy, in which sinners undergo preparation and spiritual cleansing before they can enter heaven.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
- Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 13:53:16 JST Microchimera
  in reply to
  @ArdainianRight @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean I don't feel like having this conversation, but I will answer this once, and I'm not going to reply if you try to argue it.
  
  Firstly, the solas are slogans, not dogmas. You can't take them as exhaustive expositions of the orthodox faith, as Lutherans see it.
  
  As for what the slogans mean:
  
  Sola fide is a statement of monergism, which is in both the wisdom literature of the Old Testament, and the Epistles of the New Testament. Job is an entire book communicating the core claim behind sola fide.
  
  Sola scriptura is not a positive claim that God can only preserve his religion through a book. It came from the observation that the church was corrupt in its proclamations. At times, it ran contrary to itself, but also to the very Scripture that was supposedly handed down from God, such is the case with indulgences and Purgatory. Since the "Tradition of the Church" was proven to be fallible, the only remaining source of infallibility that we know about is Scripture.
  
  I hope this brief explanation was useful for understanding what the claims of Lutheranism are. Have a good night.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
- Ardainian Hebrew Israelite (ardainianright@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 14:36:48 JST Ardainian Hebrew Israelite
  in reply to
  @opphunter88 @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean
  I don't personally have a strong opinion on purgatory or indulgences. For me the core of the faith is in Jesus Christ and the lineage of His Church, particularly in Christ's real presence in the Holy Eucharist, where He remains truly manifest within the world and within us. The Catholic Church alone traces its lineage back to this institution at the Last Supper, having been manifest within the world ever since then. Many within the Church have been corrupted and gone astray, but the Church itself remains in spite of that.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
- Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 14:36:49 JST Microchimera
  in reply to
  @ArdainianRight @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean If I were to make the Biblical argument, I would just be making the case for Substitutionary Atonement as the explicit teaching of Scripture, which necessarily refutes both doctrines. But I'm not going to do that, because these discussions have been rehashed online so many times that 1: It's boring, and 2: someone else is bound to have done it better than me.
  
  Hebrews is a good place to start if you want to investigate yourself, particularly chapter 10 (it is addressing jewish custom, but the actual argument the author makes also applies against the medieval Roman doctrines.) You should read and internalize the Book of Hebrews in general. There's also the Psalms, 1 Corinthians, and probably other books, that reference our purification being a one time purchase accomplished by substitutionary righteousness, which renders a concept like Purgatory redundant.
  
  These are two entirely different models of salvation, and only one can be true.
  
  I'm not necessarily denying that there is a place in between death and the resting place of your soul. I'm personally agnostic on the question, but there's a clear tradition of such a place in the early Church Fathers, and we have no idea where it came from. It could go back to Christ and the Apostles, but those traditions don't look like Purgatory, they look a lot closer to the Eastern Orthodox tollhouses, which I can recommend a great book on, if you'd like.
  
  You're forgiven for not being thoroughly literate on every Biblical topic. It's a dense book and you don't pick up on everything your first read under the best of circumstances. It's also far too easy to turn on some Youtube apologist and let them do the work for you, I've been guilty of that before, only to be proven embarrassingly wrong once I do my own analysis. I was actually baptized a Catholic because I got into the apologists, and my spiritual father told me that this was a valid way for a layperson to learn, which was horrid advice, though I generally respect the man. In the end, there is a right and a wrong answer to these questions, and the fate of our souls could depend on getting it right.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
  
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- Ardainian Hebrew Israelite (ardainianright@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 14:53:05 JST Ardainian Hebrew Israelite
  in reply to
  @opphunter88 @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean
  I think it's incorrect to say that none of them are Christians. Some may be insincere, and some may be doing a poor job, but they generally do believe in the fundamentals of the Christian faith. And for all the legitimate criticisms of the Catholic hierarchy, as far as I can tell just about all the other churches are doing as badly or worse in terms of upholding the faith. Christianity as a whole isn't doing so hot in terms of maintaining the really obvious and well-established fundamentals of the faith that are strongly supported by both scripture and tradition. No sincere and serious Christian over 2000 years would have the slightest patience for clown shoes pride flag blasphemy, so at this point there's a universal struggle among all Christians to simply preserve the faith at all that's way bigger than the finer points of theology.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
- Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 14:53:06 JST Microchimera
  in reply to
  @ArdainianRight @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean Lutherans believe in the real presence and some synods have apostolic succession, though we would argue that the actual faith matters more than a material succession of bishops.
  
  If you have a valid lineage of bishops, but none of them are Christians, as we would say of Rome, it's a hallow claim to legitimacy.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
- Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 15:31:40 JST Microchimera
  in reply to
  @ArdainianRight @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean I will not disagree that all synods are fighting (and frankly, losing) the battle against modernism.
  There is a key difference. Rome has made heresy an infallible dogma of the church that can never be reformed. You cannot accept Nostra Aetate and still be a Christian. Vatican II completely changed the paradigm when it comes to Rome.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
- Ardainian Hebrew Israelite (ardainianright@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 15:31:40 JST Ardainian Hebrew Israelite
  in reply to
  @opphunter88 @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean
  My understanding of papal infallibility is that it only applies to rare and specific circumstances. I don't believe it would apply to every papal encyclical or the Vatican II stuff. It certainly isn't universally agreed to be the case.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
- Ardainian Hebrew Israelite (ardainianright@detroitriotcity.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 16:40:04 JST Ardainian Hebrew Israelite
  in reply to
  @opphunter88 @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean
  Nobody seems to have a good answer that everyone agrees upon regarding all this stuff. At best some of the Vatican II stuff presents the faith poorly and in a misleading manner, as it's obvious that salvation can only come through Christ, and a willful rejection of Christ is a rejection of salvation. We may not be able to see as God sees and fully know who will and won't be saved, but there cannot be salvation outside of Christ. All I know is that I have personally encountered Christ through His real presence in the Holy Eucharist through the Church, and I'm going to go where I find Christ.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
- Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 16:40:05 JST Microchimera
  in reply to
  @ArdainianRight @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean Ex Cathedra is only one mechanism of infallibility. Ecumenical Councils are also infallible. The out normally given for Vatican II is that it claims at the beginning not to define new dogma, but then it goes on to contradict old dogmas, and it’s still an ecumenical council approved by two Popes, so it’s infallible.
  
  The intention, of course, was to promote liberalism with as much plausible deniability as possible, but all the Popes and the Magisterium for the past half century have affirmed that Vatican II, in its entirety, is authoritative. I believe Pope Francis even made this explicit in an encyclical a couple years ago.
  
  The Papist is bound to this council, which teaches heresy.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
- Microchimera (opphunter88@gleasonator.com)'s status on Wednesday, 23-Aug-2023 17:04:43 JST Microchimera
  in reply to
  @ArdainianRight @kf01 @mushroom_soup @BearButthole @King_Noticer @Victor_Emmanuel @justnormalkorean In the West, we have always accepted that sacraments can have grace even when given by schismatics, or even heretics. For example, RC’s believe the Nestorian Church has a valid Eucharist, even with severely deficient Christology.
  
  The specific criteria, from the Lutheran perspective, is more ambiguous, but I am willing to believe that God’s grace extends to the Roman Eucharist.
  
  In conversation about a year ago permalink
  
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