Conversation

Notices

1. kvit (kvit@vampiremaid.cafe)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:28:09 JST kvit
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppRlTVh1k2A
   
   Interesting video, I keep seeing the idea of fatalism show up again and again. I'll have to gather my thoughts together and make a thread eventually. The concept in this video overlaps quite a lot with my own.
   • bebe (bebe@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:27:57 JST bebe

     in reply to

     • ConscientiousPoster
     • givenup
     @givenup @ConscientiousPoster @kvit Oh she is very cute. Thank you friend.
   • bebe (bebe@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:27:58 JST bebe

     in reply to

     • ConscientiousPoster
     @ConscientiousPoster @kvit Yes she is very cute.
   • givenup (givenup@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:27:58 JST givenup

     in reply to

     • bebe
     • ConscientiousPoster
     @bebe @ConscientiousPoster @kvit what about asagi tho?
   • ConscientiousPoster (conscientiousposter@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:27:59 JST ConscientiousPoster

     in reply to
     @kvit This sounds a lot like my own idea of it, it's a lot more stitched together than mine, so I think I get the gist of it. Sorry if I presumed too much.
   • kvit (kvit@vampiremaid.cafe)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:28:05 JST kvit

     in reply to

     • ConscientiousPoster
     @ConscientiousPoster
     Central to the idea of Free Will is a degree of separation of the mind, this is the only way a decision can truly be "yours" rather than a result of outside circumstances. The first principle here is wrong because the mind is not a single entity but several, all interacting subconsciously and with the physical world. Decisions are often made before thought is noticeably put into them, and all are influenced by environmental factors. The separation of mind and body here simply doesn't exist. This is part of why I brought up the brain in my first post, there's a lot to learn about left/right brain activity and the subconscious that is relevant here, to me.
     
     >"It’s very interesting to me how you don’t associate rigidity with something undesirable despite still wanting some sort of freedom, however forced."
     
     This is interesting, "Freedom" in this context doesn't necessarily mean liberation but maybe active Will? The chance to act rather than be acted upon? It is a bit unclear to me but I've found I value purpose and direction for acting out my will than a vague, directionless free will.
     
     The point about the Japanese is part of my point, It sounds like the accept the concept of Fatalism but want release from it. I would argue they've shown more heroic responses as well but it's distinct from the Norse. The way I view the Norse response is accepting Fate and their desire to act their Will upon it.
     
     I have a Fate > I desire to act my Will upon it > I am Fated to act upon Fate and therefore to be acted upon. The logic is somewhat cyclical and I'm not sure I even totally agree with it. The point is you don't carve a path out of thin air, from it's ideal and free concept. You study the contours or the land, materials and time available, and the value of the project. Afterwards you actively make the decisions that result from all that background and force the road into existence. That's the sort of Freedom that appeals to me.
     
     Not sure I'm explaining it exactly as I want though.
   • kvit (kvit@vampiremaid.cafe)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:28:06 JST kvit

     in reply to

     • ConscientiousPoster
     @ConscientiousPoster That's definitely a serious part of it on top of that the fact it's is inevitable shows they naturally expected it to happen. Civilizations grow and decline Cyclically in that view. I think what really interests me is the hints it gives into ancient Psychology. The Norse tradition is full of heroes who put themselves in impossible situations and face them head on, almost like the Norse are saying "will he be the one to actually change his fate". Despite that Fate itself is never considered evil or a prison as we might today. At most a specific fate is seen as unfortunate. Free will almost contradicts itself in that you are meant to be separate from the causes and effects of your decision, yet inherent to the idea is things could be different under the right circumstances. In the Fenrir story I see the Norseman try to embrace every cause that naturally lead to where they are, following the threads of fate and hope, until it leads to a final moment of triumph where he accepts what brought him there, makes his challenge, likely fails, but lives well because of it.
     
     It's why this topic is so interesting to me. I wonder if we haven't taken a step back by losing this sense of purpose in favor of Free Will. There's a reason why hints of fatalism remain even to this day. "Gods plan" and all that.
   • ConscientiousPoster (conscientiousposter@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:28:06 JST ConscientiousPoster

     in reply to

     @kvit >Free will almost contradicts itself in that you are meant to be separate from the causes and effects of your decision, yet inherent to the idea is things could be different under the right circumstances

     Do you mean that free will is still a part of the process of cause and effect, not entirely separated, despite how it’s supposed to be something above or entirely independent from it? The mind can create future possible worlds, see different possibilities and make a selection from there, the material of the world and its laws are still there and we act more like a droplet into a turbulent ocean is how I view this.

     It’s very interesting to me how you don’t associate rigidity with something undesirable despite still wanting some sort of freedom, however forced. Usually people want to break away from the constraints of reality wholesale in some way. In the Japanese this Fatalism is expressed in either suicide or some erotic and fetishistic release, or a mixture of the two as expressed in lovers suicide. I’m half sure the Japanese interest in incest comes from this, but I’ve not read enough of non-anime/LN Japanese literature for this to be anything but a guess. I’m saying this just to draw a parallel, even if it’s comparing the heroic courage of the Norse with sexual depravity, there’s still a similarity in how both views of Fatalism don’t center on the acceptance of it.

     I think the commonality between the idea of Free Will, of ultimate freedom of choice outside of the material circumstance we are subjected to, and the common person’s dislike for rigidity and social rules is the franchisement that comes from facing a reality that places someone as the center of his own path. That this desire keeps popping up despite everything in seemingly cyclical fashions speak more to human nature, as far as I can speculate I mean.

     I’m probably just restating the obvious.

   • ConscientiousPoster (conscientiousposter@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:28:07 JST ConscientiousPoster

     in reply to
     @kvit The only thing I can think of is that this is an analogy of the way breaking restrictions and boundaries naturally leads to the complete destruction of everything natural and orderly, in a similar way to how the destruction of a cell's membrane leads to the cessation of life. Wanting order while also wanting a bit of chance and luck feels like a very civilized thing, despite how it's been visualized here
   • ConscientiousPoster (conscientiousposter@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:28:08 JST ConscientiousPoster

     in reply to
     @kvit >Hope is the saliva coming from the wolf that will in the future destroy the world
     These sorts of poetic visualizations that seem to want what's seen in the implications, of a wolf shackled and its attempts to break through the chains that binds its own fate which then results in a kind of frothing of the mouth, are beautiful. But also that's a brutal way of seeing hope
   • kvit (kvit@vampiremaid.cafe)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:28:08 JST kvit

     in reply to

     • ConscientiousPoster
     @ConscientiousPoster That was something that really stood out to me. Hope was something they got in little peaces and trickles, coming from the very source of the end of all things. The imagery of desire is interesting because in the end Fenrir will break free. The moment the Norse would be most free of Fate would also be the moment they lose control/access to the source of hope. I'm still organizing my thoughts, but I don't necessarily view free will as a liberating concept. I think I and the Norse would rather have the very grounded source of purpose Fatalism can provide, and a little Hope.
   • :btrfly: anime graf mays 🛰️🪐 (graf@poa.st)'s status on Thursday, 10-Aug-2023 23:28:39 JST :btrfly: anime graf mays 🛰️🪐

     in reply to

     • bebe
     • ConscientiousPoster
     • givenup
     @bebe @givenup @ConscientiousPoster @kvit yes you are welcome friend. good morning friend.
     Machismo likes this.