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1. ≠ (amerika@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:03:24 JST ≠

   • Yetimon

   @Yetimon

   I think you mean Agnosticism there.

   Atheism positively asserts a negation.

   The scientific position is "we don't know."

   • ≠ (amerika@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:03:17 JST ≠

     in reply to

     • Yetimon
     • Ghast

     @ghast @Yetimon

     I am agnostic on fairies. Maybe they exist; maybe not. Cannot be proven unless someone captures one.

     Lovecraftian horrors I dismiss because their creator referred to them as fiction.

     Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: likes this.
   • Ghast (ghast@liberdon.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:03:18 JST Ghast

     in reply to

     • Yetimon

     @amerika

     In that case, we're going to permanently talk past each other.

     You keep switching to knowledge, and it seems like we agree on this aspect.

     But theism is not knowledge, rather it's belief.

     And I don't know why "positive" is included in your description. Atheism is dismissal of an assertion. I dismiss fairies and Lovecraftian horrors as well.

     @Yetimon

   • ≠ (amerika@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:03:19 JST ≠

     in reply to

     • Yetimon
     • Ghast

     @ghast @Yetimon

     I think I said:

     > Atheism positively asserts a negation.
     >
     > The scientific position is "we don't know."

     The latter is agnosticism.

     I think it a valid and highly defensible position because it interrupts the proposition "If what religion says is true, then we must" with "we cannot know if the first clause is true."

   • ≠ (amerika@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:03:20 JST ≠

     in reply to

     • Yetimon
     • Ghast

     @ghast @Yetimon

     Right, and without knowledge, you cannot say yes or no.

     Only that you lack knowledge.

     There may be UFOs; I have never seen one.

     I am agnostic on UFOs.

   • Ghast (ghast@liberdon.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:03:20 JST Ghast

     in reply to

     • Yetimon

     @amerika

     Then on what point do we disagree?

     @Yetimon

   • ≠ (amerika@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:03:22 JST ≠

     in reply to

     • Yetimon
     • Ghast

     @ghast @Yetimon

     "They can't prove that claim any more than believers can theirs."

     Exactly. Not to mention positively proving a negation...

     Agnosticism is the position you describe here:

     "I will not [know if there is] a deity until there's sufficient evidence."

     Counterpoint: works only for physical science.

   • Ghast (ghast@liberdon.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:03:22 JST Ghast

     in reply to

     • Yetimon

     @amerika

     The "a" prefix is not "there is none", it is "without".

     I do not have any knowledge of an actual deity. This is the correct position.

     And your complaint about "physical science" doesn't matter much, because "god" doesn't pass the test of basic logic.

     @Yetimon

   • Ghast (ghast@liberdon.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:03:24 JST Ghast

     in reply to

     • Yetimon

     @amerika

     Incorrect. Though there are so-called "strong atheists" that do assert there's no god. They can't prove that claim any more than believers can theirs.

     Gnosticism is a knowledge claim, theism is belief.

     I will not believe in a deity until there's sufficient evidence.

     @Yetimon

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:04:17 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Yetimon
     • Ghast
     @amerika @ghast @Yetimon knowledge and belief are literally the same thing. The only real distinction is your level of confidence.
   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:06:43 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Yetimon
     • Ghast
     @amerika @Yetimon @ghast you could consider knowledge of skills to be a separate category from knowledge of facts. I think knowing how to do a thing is different from believing you know how to do a thing, but I can't see any real distinction between thinking you know a fact is correct and knowing a fact is correct.
   • ≠ (amerika@noagendasocial.com)'s status on Friday, 21-Jul-2023 05:37:42 JST ≠

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Yetimon
     • Ghast

     @thatguyoverthere @ghast @Yetimon

     Some things are unknowable.

     Most people are agnostics who hope for the divine more than believe.

     Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: likes this.