Conversation

Notices

1. Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Tuesday, 27-Jun-2023 23:55:46 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

   Love how so many of these restorations start as “well, this old white guy was in tahiti, and he looked around at the airport and saw the locals had been using this wreck as a decoration…..”

   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:05:27 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Troubled Turtle :verified:

     @troubledturtle https://www.aircorpsaviation.com/project/p-47d-23-razorback/

   • Troubled Turtle :verified: (troubledturtle@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:05:28 JST Troubled Turtle :verified:

     in reply to
     @WashedOutGundamPilot That a P-47G ? pretty sure thats what it is.
   • Paultron-3030 (paultron@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:10:19 JST Paultron-3030

     in reply to

     • Troubled Turtle :verified:
     @WashedOutGundamPilot @troubledturtle never gonna forgive the Fairchild execs and Pentagon deskniggers for forcing the employees to torch their archives going back to the 1920s. so much stuff about the development of the P-47s, severskys, funky interwar airliners and early cold war jets just gone forever because lmao some of it is probably secret and we ain't gonna sort
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:12:20 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • Troubled Turtle :verified:

     @Paultron @troubledturtle We blame the boomers but I’ve seen that attitude through at least the 1900s, if not longer. Americans have a very short memory, and a shameful disinterest in history. I think a good deal of that just comes from being a young nation, for much of the land your oldest ‘historic’ structures are wooden cabins from the 1800s.

     Add in the quick march of tech, and it makes sense why people in 1950 would look at quickly obsolescent tech and think “ugh, who’s gonna want this in 50 years? we’ll have flying cars by then!!!”

   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:19:31 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • Troubled Turtle :verified:

     @troubledturtle @Paultron The aerodynamics actually weren’t known by then though. I was just reading about this, the other day. There were aero studies in the states that were openly published, until it was disbarred in 1938. Had the krauts paid attention they could have made a much sleeker BF109, which would have paid off handsomely throughout its life cycle.

     Notable that the Spitfire and Messerschmitt were designed and tested around the same time, but one ended the war as a highly competent fighter, while the other was merely passable after a series of kludges. Aerodynamics count for a lot, and when you have rosenbergs poking around everywhere I can at least get why the gov was trying to limit knowledge transfer as much as it could. The russians ended up with a lot of alien, dead end tech because they were forced to stumble around and develop things on their own -the US has always been a research powerhouse in terms of resources to throw at engineering.

   • Troubled Turtle :verified: (troubledturtle@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:19:32 JST Troubled Turtle :verified:

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     @Paultron @WashedOutGundamPilot Thats retarded ,doesnt matter if it was secret because it was all rendered moot once we switched over to jets.
   • Nierenstein: Romcom Villain Arc (nierenstein@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:19:38 JST Nierenstein: Romcom Villain Arc

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • Troubled Turtle :verified:
     @WashedOutGundamPilot @Paultron @troubledturtle America's relative lack of cool historic structures is about 80% of why I don't respect injuns
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Paultron-3030 (paultron@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:19:51 JST Paultron-3030

     in reply to

     • Troubled Turtle :verified:
     @troubledturtle @WashedOutGundamPilot well they had modern documentation too for stuff like A-10 and their manufacturing projects for F-14. Just stored on the same shelves as the old piston fighters. important stuff was backed up at the pentagon so they said torch it all. I think an engineer managed to get out a copier paper box of stuff he deemed important but stuff like P-47 prototype trail data, original line drawings and iterations, manufacturing details, all gone
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Troubled Turtle :verified: (troubledturtle@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:39:57 JST Troubled Turtle :verified:

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     @WashedOutGundamPilot @Paultron Why you gotta be logical and shiieeet ? :lol_fb:
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:39:57 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • Troubled Turtle :verified:

     @troubledturtle @Paultron Because it’s very interesting to think about. Messerschmitt really screwed up in a few ways doing the BF109. If he’d had more vision, been smarter, been more invested in his design past meeting the minimum spec, he could have turned out an even MORE impressive aircraft that would have provided much-needed edge to his boys in their dire war years.

     It’s almost weird that he didn’t do more to make the 109 more aerodynamic, the germans were cleaning up on speed records, already smart enough to make sleek, high-performance birds, but he just….turned in something with high wing loading and a pretty drag-laden airframe. Would it have made a huge difference? Not in the grand scheme. But it’s strange to see regardless. People think of the sleek spitfire and P51 as being a totally diff generation from the BF109….but they were designed more or less concurrently. When the germans saw the first P51 they were blown away by it’s sleek form, cd on it was something like 1/4 what the 109’s was

     Something to be learned from willie messerschmitt’s career, when you’re building wartime aircraft it’s probably good to go the extra mile, even when the specification doesn’t demand it.

   • Troubled Turtle :verified: (troubledturtle@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:52:51 JST Troubled Turtle :verified:

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     @WashedOutGundamPilot @Paultron > cd on it was something like 1/4 what the 109’s was
     cd ?
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 00:52:51 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • Troubled Turtle :verified:

     @troubledturtle @Paultron Drag coefficient. Kind of a short way to assign an overall value to how efficient your design cuts through the air. There’s some interesting comparison between the mustang and the spitfire, where they were powered by the same engines but ended up with 30 mph speed difference…. IKR exactly but I want to say the biggest diff. was the induction system being more efficient on the ‘stang.

     Tiny changes on a plane add up more than you think. Cessna guys can take off like, 10% shorter just by adding gap seals to their wings. A little strip of tape keeps air stuck to the wing, improves lift, etc. IIRC the BF109 could have benefitted from them, too. An old aero report said that production left gaps in the slats too often, which robbed performance.

   • Troubled Turtle :verified: (troubledturtle@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 01:35:54 JST Troubled Turtle :verified:

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     @WashedOutGundamPilot @Paultron Thanks for the explanation . My love of planes comes from my father who got me into building models , we both had a particular fondness for WW2 prop planes . I do like jets ,but most dont grab my attention except for a select few ,two jets that really excite me , are the F-14 Tomcat and F-86 Sabre . Honorable mention goes to the LTV A-7 Corsair II.
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 01:38:52 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • Troubled Turtle :verified:

     @troubledturtle @Paultron I always gravitated towards the weird, out-of-war aircraft. The postwar props, the interwar biplane experiments. There are some cool later stuff but it’s not as accessible or fun to fly, you can understand a vintage prop aircraft, its systems are similar to a car’s still.

   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 02:09:13 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • Troubled Turtle :verified:

     @troubledturtle @Paultron There was a 109 version like that, I think. Similar idea

   • Troubled Turtle :verified: (troubledturtle@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 02:09:14 JST Troubled Turtle :verified:

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     @WashedOutGundamPilot @Paultron I love that stuff too , for me its the Twin Mustang and flying flapjack as far as experimental whacky planes go.
   • Troubled Turtle :verified: (troubledturtle@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 02:13:04 JST Troubled Turtle :verified:

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     @WashedOutGundamPilot @Paultron me-109 nevingtonwarmuseum.com/me-109-zwilling.html
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Steppe Warrior Hogan (hogankhan@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 07:40:10 JST Steppe Warrior Hogan

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • Troubled Turtle :verified:
     @WashedOutGundamPilot @troubledturtle @Paultron That's odd.
     
     From what I thought it was the Germans that overdesigned their tanks and aircraft, when a lesser cheaper quicker-to-produce version would have worked better given the odds they were up against.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 07:40:10 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • Troubled Turtle :verified:
     • Steppe Warrior Hogan

     @hogankhan @troubledturtle @Paultron It’s not ‘overengineered’, it’s strongest aspects are ease of manufacture and field repairability. They just left a bit of performance on the table that they wouldn’t have had to.

     Willie messerschmitt was kind of….retarded. Boomer, more like it today. Some make the case that his decision to make the auto leading edge slats and super narrow-track gear killed a whole lot of young german pilots, and they were things he was specifically cautioned about from everyone around him. He was obstinate, stuck up about his designs….but he didn’t have the requisite level of genius to be that arrogant. He pumped out a lot of aircraft, yeah, but how many were truly great? Not a whole ton. Lots of B’s and C’s on that report card.

     If he’d been more humble, more open to input from others, the 109 could have been a better, safer, plane that aged gracefully throughout the war. They wouldn’t have needed a dozen variations just to continuously lag behind the allies every 6 months. It was a fine fighter in its own right, he just….turned in a B grade when he had everything he needed to turn in an A+ out of the gate. He built a plane to last 3 years before replacement, instead of swinging for the fences and aiming for 10.

   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 07:40:51 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     The 109 def. had its advantages, which tend to cloud over the problems, but I don’t like giving the glory to the aircraft when it was the pilots that worked their magic. They became aces in spite of the 109, rather than because of it.

   • Steppe Warrior Hogan (hogankhan@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 08:13:03 JST Steppe Warrior Hogan

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • Troubled Turtle :verified:
     @WashedOutGundamPilot @troubledturtle @Paultron Okay maybe just tanks then. I do not know in detail the engineering it is just what I have heard.
     
     For the Sherman tank it was nothing on the various German tanks but Americans could produce them in large numbers and had the logistics to support them.
     
     Whereas the German tanks were beasts but couldn't be produced in very large numbers and they had to be supplied by men on horseback.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 08:13:03 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Paultron-3030
     • Troubled Turtle :verified:
     • Steppe Warrior Hogan

     @hogankhan @troubledturtle @Paultron Well, the 109 DID have some of that thoroughbred spirit in it. Liquid cooled is not the best system for a fighter, and the DB601 was a fine little sewing machine that didn’t take a prop strike well. Radials tolerated a lot more damage and still kept chugging.

     The great parts of the 109 were the simplicity of construction, ease of upkeep. Inverted engine allowed the techs to swap out parts and work on it sans equipment, with everything at eye level while parked. The wing assembly was simple, light. Everything was contained in the fuselage. 109 had a cool approach to dogfighting, too, with a bit longer zero and doctrine that gave them more range to gun down opponents.

     But it STILL had the germanic vibe from a Pilot POV. From what I hear (not having flown one myself) the panel layout was not too great, easily clouded in sun/shadow, lacked an attitude indicator, and maybe had iffy transitions on takeoff between throttle/flaps/gear, IIRC. Been a while for me, but that’s the gist.

     Funny that some actually liked the cramped cockpit, they felt like it locked them in more for maneuvering, like a bolstered sports car seat. Downside is that they pilots only got half the leverage they’d have in something like a spitfire, (i THINK that’s from winkle’s book)

     If willy had just been willing to listen to people, make it a bit bigger, sleeker, roomier it could have had more space to grow. Also goering’s fat ass should have prioritized big ass drop tanks, wouldn’t have lost so many guys in the BoB when they kept ditching in the channel, too.

   • Consoomer88 (consoomer88@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 09:23:09 JST Consoomer88

     in reply to
     @WashedOutGundamPilot There was no other craft that was capable of doing what the 109 did to allow them to accumulate such ridiculous kill counts.
     The 109 pre-G model was a thoroughbred killing machine. There was literally nothing better in the world at the mission it was designed for.
     The RAF even admitted that the design philosophy of “Make the smallest airframe possible and cram the biggest engine available into it” was something RAF designers should copy.
     The only thing even close, the Spitfire, could outturn it but it was slower and couldn’t climb with it.
     Even in ‘43, with the US fully committed the only competition it really had was from the Spit Mk V and the 190-and neither of them could stay with the 109 in a climb.
     Such performance has its price. Pre and early war jagdflieger trainees had a much easier time of learning the 109 vs those at the end of the war, with 10 hours in a Storch, who were stuffed into a G-10 or a Kurfusrt and told to go dance with Zemkes Wolfpack, RAF Tempests and Spitfire XIV and La-5’s.
     
     There are very few extreme high performance aircraft that aren’t dangerous to an inexperienced pilot.
     See-F-104 lol
     Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks likes this.
   • Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks (washedoutgundampilot@poa.st)'s status on Wednesday, 28-Jun-2023 09:42:06 JST Woggy's Zeonic Frolicks

     in reply to

     • Consoomer88

     @Consoomer88 The 109 was still competitive on paper, but that’s assuming peak pilot ability. In the hands of skilled test pilots you’re getting nine tenths of the machine’s performance, but how much do you see wrung out in the hands of the average line pilot?

     Winkle could make a 109 dance to its full potential, but what about Klaus Steigel, a 17 yo farm boy with 1,200 hours of steam tractor piloting under his belt? Will it let him fuck up a few times without killing him?

     All that isn’t the plane’s fault, it’s Goering’s, but still. The chasm between theoretical performance and actual performance is much greater than many admit even today.