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1. Lorewegian 📚 (lore@berserker.town)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2023 21:02:52 JST Lorewegian 📚

   hardcore socialists are really walking into the wind. people aren't really put together to function that way naturally, so an artificial structure has to be enforced. which means that most socialists are also authoritarians.

   • Lorewegian 📚 (lore@berserker.town)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2023 21:02:37 JST Lorewegian 📚

     in reply to

     • JW prince of CPH

     @jwcph effectiveness is to create an effect. not necessarily a good one.

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   • Lorewegian 📚 (lore@berserker.town)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2023 21:02:38 JST Lorewegian 📚

     in reply to

     • JW prince of CPH

     @jwcph it's possible to be effectively evil.

   • JW prince of CPH (jwcph@norrebro.space)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2023 21:02:47 JST JW prince of CPH

     in reply to

     @lore Just to clarify my own understanding, such as it is: "Effective" means "producing a successful result", and "efficient" means "producing a result with minimal ressources, regardless of successfulness". So "effective" does relate to some desirability, while "efficient" doesn't.

     This relates to dictatorship outcomes in the sense that they don't produce lasting benefits, meaning they may be efficient, but not effective.

   • Lorewegian 📚 (lore@berserker.town)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2023 21:02:48 JST Lorewegian 📚

     in reply to

     • JW prince of CPH

     @jwcph well, currently, El Salvator is effectively a dictatorship, and it's very popular with the people. but i said nothing about the *long term* effectiveness.

     also, Iraq was kept stable by a brutal dictator. now it's a nesting ground for terrorist groups like ISIS.

     also, "effective" isn't necessarily "good" or desirable.

   • JW prince of CPH (jwcph@norrebro.space)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2023 21:02:49 JST JW prince of CPH

     in reply to

     @lore is it though...? Besides the myth of Mussolini getting the trains to run on time (he didn't), do we have examples of authoritarian societies that were *actually* effective?

     - because quickly building, say, a ton of shitty concrete housing isn't effective. It may be (!) efficient but that's a different thing. It seems most grandiose authoritarian "getting things done" projects fulfill a propaganda purpose, but not much else...

     Enlighten me, please, I don't mind being proven wrong.

   • Lorewegian 📚 (lore@berserker.town)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2023 21:02:50 JST Lorewegian 📚

     in reply to

     now, is authoritarianism good or bad? it is at least effective.

   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Saturday, 20-May-2023 21:04:13 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • JW prince of CPH

     @jwcph
     I would say that to be effective is to achieve your aims. It doesn't mean that your aims are good.
     @lore

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   • JW prince of CPH (jwcph@norrebro.space)'s status on Saturday, 20-May-2023 21:04:14 JST JW prince of CPH

     in reply to

     @lore I think rhetorics can have lengthy discussions about this - like, for example, if we say that "effective" = "producing *any* effect" doesn't that mean that literally *everything* is effective, and does that not invalidate having a word for it at all?

     Wouldn't the reason we have a word like that be that we want a word to describe achieving an effect we agree upon to be beneficial?

     Also, can evil be desirable? Why would we call it evil, then?

     You know, et cetera...