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1. Dave Lane 🇳🇿 (lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Thursday, 29-Dec-2022 09:56:09 JST Dave Lane 🇳🇿

   Over the years, I've heard many idealistic young (and no-so-much) tech folk say, after accepting roles at Microsoft or other predatory tech corporates, that they were going to "change the corporation from the inside". Initially, I thought that 'infiltration narrative' had some merit. 20 years later, however, I've seen how that's worked out for those folks. A couple quit & dropped out of tech entirely, but most stayed. And most had their idealistic edges well rounded by 'the machine'... 1/2

   • Adrian Cochrane repeated this.
   • Dave Lane 🇳🇿 (lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Thursday, 29-Dec-2022 09:59:41 JST Dave Lane 🇳🇿

     in reply to

     Most now (like on my recent visit to Silicon valley) will congratulate you for being such a committed idealist (with a barely perceptible eye roll) but they'll say stuff like "well, here in the *real world*[R], things just don't work that way". Because, at this stage, they're experts in the world. They've bought the myth of wealth/US exceptionalism. And, when you take money from the worst players, you're complicit in their actions in proportion to how much they pay you... 2/2

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Thursday, 29-Dec-2022 10:02:54 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     @lightweight Ugh, the phrase "real world"! This conception of the "real world" may be challenging to change, but it is human-made. As such it can be remade!

   • Dave Lane 🇳🇿 (lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Thursday, 29-Dec-2022 12:51:08 JST Dave Lane 🇳🇿

     in reply to

     • LisPi

     @lispi314 sorry, no, the one who left was different and pretty scarred by the whole process. To make matters worse, his talents were totally squandered by Microsoft (he was the top student of 35,000 at his university). The other one just felt he needed to give his clients ('all nice people' but working for 'big (nasty) tech') the benefit of the doubt, presumably because it then allowed him, working for their benefit, the ability to do the same.

   • LisPi (lispi314@mastodon.top)'s status on Thursday, 29-Dec-2022 12:51:16 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     @lightweight Ah, so that was the same one who left, I see. I got confused.

     Indeed, I'd certainly still feel conflicted about ever helping them.

   • Dave Lane 🇳🇿 (lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Thursday, 29-Dec-2022 12:51:18 JST Dave Lane 🇳🇿

     in reply to

     • LisPi

     @lispi314 they have to be less despicable for him to feel ok about his work.

   • LisPi (lispi314@mastodon.top)'s status on Thursday, 29-Dec-2022 12:51:19 JST LisPi

     in reply to

     @lightweight Them being customers doesn't make them any less despicable. What a silly chap.

   • Dave Lane 🇳🇿 (lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Thursday, 29-Dec-2022 12:51:20 JST Dave Lane 🇳🇿

     in reply to

     A couple of my most idealistic uni mates have been in Silicon Valley for many years. They suggested when we visited recently, that I'd probably want to take my kids to see the Apple, Microsoft, and Google HQs there, & were amazed when I explained why that wasn't something I wanted to celebrate. One of them said he remembered when he felt like me (his look suggesting a mix of nostalgia & pity for my naivete), but, he said, they're all his customers & he has a mortgage to service... 1/2

   • Dave Lane 🇳🇿 (lightweight@mastodon.nzoss.nz)'s status on Thursday, 29-Dec-2022 12:51:21 JST Dave Lane 🇳🇿

     in reply to

     One mate of mine who had a crisis of conscience (he worked for Microsoft) was so badly affected when he finally quit, he couldn't take on full time work, and ended up working for a pittance at an ed tech company far way from the PNW where I knew him. He was devastated by the experience. Interestingly, he also took up sky diving and writing dour music. Lost touch with him eventually.

   • helgztech (helgztech@fosstodon.org)'s status on Thursday, 29-Dec-2022 12:51:34 JST helgztech

     in reply to

     • LisPi

     @lightweight @lispi314 that's the thing, isn't it. I follow a couple of Microsoft people who are lovely humans. They see no problem with it.

     I remember chatting to someone in a plane while en route to SCaLE linux expo years back, who happened to be with Microsoft. It was a little awkward;I could see he thought I was a naive ideologue.

   • ocdtrekkie (ocdtrekkie@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 29-Dec-2022 12:52:37 JST ocdtrekkie

     in reply to

     @lightweight I literally had well-known activist Googlers block me on Twitter for stating that Google "wasn't worth saving". Years later, they do not work for Google anymore.

     Especially once you already work at some of these companies, the cult effect can be really strong.