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1. 🌲Hidden🌲 (hidden@cawfee.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:11:09 JST 🌲Hidden🌲
   My grandma thinks the hospital is an evil government facility and that they cloned me to trick her and that they killed her friend Lorenzo. Holy moly 💀
   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:11:05 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     @Hyolobrika @hidden I know a few people that work on the ortho floor at the hospital and apparently that is fairly common, even when people don't have dementia
   • 🌲Hidden🌲 (hidden@cawfee.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:11:07 JST 🌲Hidden🌲

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     @Hyolobrika She can't go home because her hip is broken
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:11:07 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     @hidden
     Ah. My bad. I thought it was a mental hospital (which are evil government facilities, come to think of it).

   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:11:09 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     @hidden
     She should be free of it even if it's not an evil government facility.

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:31:00 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     @Hyolobrika @hidden well I think in their current state few could leave if they wanted. I think you could say yes technically they are currently being held against their will because they are not of sound mind or body and would hurt themselves and/or others. You aren't getting far with a broken hip no matter how much you protest.
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:31:02 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     @thatguyoverthere
     Are they kept there against their will?
     @hidden
     Is your grandma?

   • 🌲Hidden🌲 (hidden@cawfee.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:31:12 JST 🌲Hidden🌲

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Hyolobrika
     @Hyolobrika @thatguyoverthere That's a complicated question. She fell and broke her hip and hit the life line button and got taken to the hospital. She wants to go home now but she still has a broken hip and can't walk so I guess technically yes
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   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:33:46 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Hyolobrika
     @Hyolobrika @hidden I've never been in the hospital that long, but I've been in jail without access to clocks or windows or any difference in the environment between night and day. It can be extremely disorienting, and I imagine if you add to that anesthesia, pain killers, old age, and likely being entirely dependent on strangers for things like using the bathroom I imagine it can do weird things to the mind.
   • 🌲Hidden🌲 (hidden@cawfee.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:35:41 JST 🌲Hidden🌲

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Hyolobrika
     @thatguyoverthere @Hyolobrika And over a decade of dementia
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   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:35:41 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     @hidden @Hyolobrika that'll do it too. I just meant to say even without it people get weird under those conditions. It's a lot of stress.
   • diceynes (diceynes@coolsite.win)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 05:37:15 JST diceynes

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Hyolobrika
     @Hyolobrika @thatguyoverthere When you loose total grip on reality and are a danger to yourself keeping people against their will in a mental hospital is necessary. The other option would be that they end up hurting themselves. Or another person for some people. Some people go so insane that they can't even feed themselves.
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   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:18:40 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     @Hyolobrika @hidden there are also people trained to help you take care of yourself when you aren't capable at the hospital.
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:18:41 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     @hidden
     I mean, I guess they could still take her home. But she'd have to sit in a chair or lie in bed all day. Might not be very hygienic.
     @thatguyoverthere

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:23:27 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • diceynes
     @Hyolobrika @diceynes @hidden I didn't [intentionally] untag anyone
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:23:29 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • diceynes

     @diceynes
     Hard disagree. The only exception to adults' freedom is harm to others, not harm to self.
     @thatguyoverthere (why did you untag @hidden?)

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:32:17 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • diceynes
     @Hyolobrika @diceynes @hidden so are you suggesting that a person who is mending bones and confused about reality should be sent home as soon as they ask? no concern for their safety at all [knowing that they will likely be hurt]?
     
     Sometimes they think they are small children too. would this have any bearing on your position?
     
     I agree with you generally that I should be able to take risks with my life and limbs, and I wouldn't want to see anyone deprived of their free will without proper justification. I know that in the past (and probably present) people have been held against their will in mental health facilities, but IMO that's a bit different from a person coming out from surgery and thinking the government is trying to implant a device or something so they start yanking out tubes and trying to escape. In the case of an actual dementia patient you often have family who have to make decisions for them because they aren't fit anymore.
   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:36:49 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     @Hyolobrika @hidden no I have family who do
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:36:51 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     @thatguyoverthere
     Do you work at a hospital?
     @hidden

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:42:14 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     @Hyolobrika @hidden no ortho... sometimes overflow from neuro too. Also night shift which can be even more disorienting for people.
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:42:16 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     @thatguyoverthere
     Mental ward?
     @hidden

   • diceynes (diceynes@coolsite.win)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:57:53 JST diceynes

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Hyolobrika
     I'm glad I was put in a mental hospital. Because when I got out life started getting better. I just needed a couple of months off from the world. And they were super supportive in that facility and very pleasant. Empathic. And many people in the facility were young people obsessed with taking their life and they would have died without help.
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   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:59:52 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • diceynes
     @Hyolobrika @diceynes @hidden I think there is a difference between using mental health facilities / techniques to help people and using them to punish them under the guise of help.
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 06:59:53 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • diceynes

     @diceynes
     Put yourself there then, tyrant.
     @hidden @thatguyoverthere

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:04:19 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Hyolobrika
     • diceynes
     @Hyolobrika @diceynes @hidden I also think that sometimes large bureaucratic systems make it hard to filter out harmful actors who might poison the well, and there are plenty of harmful people interested in mental health, so I'm not saying your concerns aren't warranted, but there are appropriate times for a person to be relieved of their authority over major decisions in their life temporarily. I don't necessarily think the state should be granted authority over people in those periods, but most of healthcare in the US is privatized so you or your family is paying someone with the understanding they will do what is in their power to protect you and help you heal.
   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:06:23 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Hyolobrika
     • diceynes
     @Hyolobrika @diceynes @hidden "privatized" with subsidies, but still. The one closest to me is part of the state University so maybe not the best example, but she worked at another one 30 minutes away doing the same kind of stuff.
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:11:29 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • diceynes

     @thatguyoverthere
     Not you. I meant diceynes.
     @hidden @diceynes

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   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:16:57 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • diceynes
     @Hyolobrika @hidden @diceynes what? I never said large systems were good. I'm pointing out that they exist. No promotion or criticism really.
     
     Or are you saying there is absolutely no condition a person can be in which would render them incapable of making informed decisions which might lead to harm to self that might otherwise have been avoided had someone lent a hand?
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:16:58 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • diceynes

     @thatguyoverthere
     If I was on Pleroma I would 🔧 you right now. Absolutely disgusting idea and you are disgusting for promoting it.
     @hidden @diceynes

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:19:56 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • diceynes
     @Hyolobrika @hidden @diceynes I'm not saying the state should be able to make those decisions. I thought I made that clear
     
     > I don't necessarily think the state should be granted authority over people in those periods...
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:19:57 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • diceynes

     @thatguyoverthere
     I've heard that in the US you can be forced (probably by the gov't) to go to hospital and pay for your "treatment" out of pocket. That seems to me like "state-run" with extra steps and the added injustice of having to fund your own oppression.
     I heard this from someone who used to be on fedi (winter/velartrill).
     @hidden @diceynes

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:28:02 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Hyolobrika
     • diceynes
     @Hyolobrika @diceynes @hidden at the same time, there is a question which I can't answer about whether a person who is suffering some kind of curable or treatable mental condition who commits a crime that can be attributed to the illness, should they go to jail for committing the crime? Too many variables for me to consider, but part of me thinks if the crime was a result of an illness, some leniency might be in order if they are willing to go to treatment (assuming the alternative is simply jail because where we are today the justice system is what it is). I don't think the state should just be able to pluck you up off the street and say nope you shit yourself you're nuts go to the ward. that's completely different.
     
     At the end of the day the question really boils down to, is there such a thing as bad mental health, is it sometimes treatable, and should we try to define and treat it if possible. I think that defining bad mental health is tricky and lately politicized (maybe always). That doesn't mean I don't think we should try to help people who are clearly outside of a certain threshold in a place where they can be kept from harming themselves and others. I don't pretend to know where that threshold is, and I don't really know who I trust to define it, but I do think such a threshold exists.
   • diceynes (diceynes@coolsite.win)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:28:16 JST diceynes

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Hyolobrika
     @thatguyoverthere @Hyolobrika @hidden The uk has a hard approach to people having autism diagnoses. I think that's what @Hyolobrika is worried about. and most likely rightfully so.
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   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:35:43 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • diceynes
     @Hyolobrika @hidden @diceynes why the hospital? should they only be made available to criminals then? that seems either unfair or likely to incentivize crime in order to gain access to mental health facilities?
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:35:44 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • diceynes

     @thatguyoverthere
     If they commit a crime (that harms someone other than themself) that's different. I think in that case they should be given a choice between hospital or prison.
     @hidden @diceynes

   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:44:19 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • diceynes
     @Hyolobrika @hidden @diceynes I agree with you. There is no perfect solution. I think the state should be involved as little as possible which means private companies and charitable organizations have to pick up the slack if we want to help people who can be helped. I'm not suggesting the 1950s approach of dropping Sue off at the mental hospital because she didn't do the dishes 3 days last week. I think there is middle ground from there to doing nothing.
     
     This discussion started because we were talking about people with dementia or temporary confusion in the hospital. I don't think anyone should be able to point at someone else and say 'send them to the nuthouse' because of their beliefs or the way they talk and behave is different. My family who work in the hospital with people who are sometimes full dementia patients but sometimes just disoriented has led me to believe that in those cases disregarding a person's will to leave is acceptable. Those who's mental faculties return will be quite happy they weren't pushed out before they were ready.
   • hyolobrika@berserker.town's status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:44:20 JST Hyolobrika

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • diceynes

     @thatguyoverthere
     It being in the hands of private companies (or individuals) isn't much better. Coercion is bad whoever engages in it.
     @hidden @diceynes

   • diceynes (diceynes@coolsite.win)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:46:55 JST diceynes

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Hyolobrika
     @thatguyoverthere @Hyolobrika @hidden The state should only be involved if there are probability of death of the person or harm of others.
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   • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think: (thatguyoverthere@shitposter.club)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:49:52 JST Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:

     in reply to

     • Hyolobrika
     • diceynes
     @diceynes @Hyolobrika @hidden if it were up to me the state wouldn't exist so yeah as little as possible :smirk:. But that does mean that non-state actors will need to fill the need. I agree with Hyo that doesn't mean people who might wish to do harm won't work their way into the system, but there is no perfect way to weed them out of any system.
   • diceynes (diceynes@coolsite.win)'s status on Thursday, 06-Apr-2023 07:56:44 JST diceynes

     in reply to

     • Disinformation Purveyor :verified_think:
     • Hyolobrika
     @thatguyoverthere @Hyolobrika If you have emphatic individuals in charge or a family oriented culture help is often a positive thing. Like how Spain treat the insane. Anglo countries have more force oriented approach to non obedience. They wont put you in the nut house for being crazy here. Only when you are in real immediate danger.
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