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@MK2boogaloo well the same guy also wrote the Church has Mediterranean roots, and that the Church is Europe. Belloc wrote so much about these topics that just taking a single line out of context is closer to a crime than a point
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@irie >well the same guy also wrote the Church has Mediterranean roots, and that the Church is Europe.
he's not wrong in that regard, I see no bullshit being written here. What's your point?
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@MK2boogaloo @irie he's wrong. Russia is Europe, Serbia is Europe etc.
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@grips @irie yes, there's still nothing wrong with what he said.
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@MK2boogaloo first of all he can't even remember in what book he read it, or whether Belloc wrote that at all, making it just another opinion on the internet. Second, there is no reason given to the main point. The Great Schism was a self-inflicted wound by German interests in the West. Third, it contradicts direct words of Belloc about European roots being Mediterranean (which is true). Finally, Belloc was a Catholic, it would be weird to expect him to demand a return to Orthodoxy; but, him being a learned man, it would not be surprising for him to demand a return to the Greco-Roman legacy, which is fully preserved in Orthodoxy as it encapsulates Eastern Roman spirit and tradition.
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@irie >first of all he can't even remember in what book he read it, or whether Belloc wrote that at all, making it just another opinion on the internet
Even if that's an opinion, it's a good one I think.
>Second, there is no reason given to the main point. The Great Schism was a self-inflicted wound by German interests in the West.
It is worthless to say who's the fault here, I think the best way is to look at the consequences. Out of all 5 Patriarchs, only one still stand. That alone is a good reason why the west wasn't wrong.
>hird, it contradicts direct words of Belloc about European roots being Mediterranean (which is true).
I don't see how it contradicts the statement, seeing how Italians are Meds. Spanish, Portuguese and to some degree France are Meds and they're Catholic.
>Finally, Belloc was a Catholic, it would be weird to expect him to demand a return to Orthodoxy; but, him being a learned man, it would not be surprising for him to demand a return to the Greco-Roman legacy, which is fully preserved in Orthodoxy as it encapsulates Eastern Roman spirit and tradition.
The Greco-Roman spirit died when Rome fell, what exist in the East now is the the accumulation of Greek Christian spirit imbued with Eastern philosophies.
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@grips @MK2boogaloo don't know what you mean here
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@irie @MK2boogaloo some countries in Europe are Orthodox, therefore the Orthodox Church is relevant to Europe. am I misunderstanding the OP?
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@grips @irie if what is said by OP is true, then Belloc was right. Despite having Orthodox pops, Europe is more influenced by Catholicism rather than the EO.
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@grips @MK2boogaloo yea true but for some the perception is "divide between TRVE Europe (which they deem as Catholic)" and between "irrelevant Europe (which they see as Orthodox);" this goes back to the divide between German and Greek ethnicities taking shape throughout the first millennium after Christ in Europe, finally leading to the Great Schism on a religious level; but the political and cultural divide had already occurred centuries earlier
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@irie @grips calling the Orthodox as irrelevant is funny, because it's true. Their ascent only happened recently, with the rise of Balkan nationalism and the World Wars.
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@MK2boogaloo
>Even if that's an opinion, it's a good one I think.
You think it is a good one, but you cannot say why. This makes all the difference.
>It is worthless to say who's the fault here
There is always meaning in tracing back events, seeing how and why something happened. Your wish to ignore all that cannot lead to sound conclusions.
>I think the best way is to look at the consequences.
>You want to look at the consequences, but you want to ignore the causes. What do we call such behavior?
>Out of all 5 Patriarchs, only one still stand
A mere fact that could support the exact opposite argument of yours. Furthermore, we Orthodox do not consider Patriarchs the equivalent of a Pope (popes occupy a position of power similar to the Pagan Roman High Priests). Our Patriarchs are fallible human beings, servants and members of the body of Christ, the Orthodox Church, and each body part has its own position to fill. Some are called to lead, some to follow. If you want to be first, prepare to be last. The Orthodox Church is not of this world.
>That alone is a good reason why the west wasn't wrong.
Not at all. Reality is not simple, much less when we trace it back throughout history. You don't have a good reason, you have no reason at all, just desire.
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@irie >You think it is a good one, but you cannot say why. This makes all the difference.
Because it's true! They haven't been relevant to any discourse for centuries, when given the chance they won't even expand their influence beyond some countries in Eastern Europe.
>>You want to look at the consequences, but you want to ignore the causes. What do we call such behavior?
The cause of that consequence is clear, the massacred the Latins and the Latins came back with violence. What do we call people who reject facts?
>A mere fact that could support the exact opposite argument of yours. Furthermore, we Orthodox do not consider Patriarchs the equivalent of a Pope (popes occupy a position of power similar to the Pagan Roman High Priests). Our Patriarchs are fallible human beings, servants and members of the body of Christ, the Orthodox Church, and each body part has its own position to fill. Some are called to lead, some to follow. If you want to be first, prepare to be last. The Orthodox Church is not of this world.
This is a very good argument why Eastern Orthodoxy won't last, if you think something is only outside of this world then why live? What even is the meaning of life when all you want is death?? Patriarchs are often fighting against each other these days, I wonder if the other world really wants that to happen.
>Not at all. Reality is not simple, much less when we trace it back throughout history. You don't have a good reason, you have no reason at all, just desire.
It is much simpler than you think, just like in this case you see the Massacre of the Latins as good but when they came back for revenge it's bad, I seriously think that whatever philosophical book you're reading is harming your way of thinking.
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@MK2boogaloo
The Greco-Roman spirit died when Rome fell, what exist in the East now is the the accumulation of Greek Christian spirit imbued with Eastern philosophies.
Big oof. Aren't you Indonesian? How can you know about such things? You don't live here. You probably never experienced anything traditionally European. You have wild claims, but nothing to back them up. Just a hooligan on the prowl.
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@irie >Big oof. Aren't you Indonesian? How can you know about such things? You don't live here. You probably never experienced anything traditionally European. You have wild claims, but nothing to back them up. Just a hooligan on the prowl.
I've seen Orthodoxes here, they're just like the pic I attached. Also, there's nothing you could prove about the Greco-Roman spirit either, whatever you see in your place is a replication made in the Renaissance era.
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@MK2boogaloo @grips
Many things are funny, but not all are true. That this claim is funny is also subjective to you, and you are not the arbiter of truth. It's funny to you, that doesn't mean anything.
The continuous existence of the Orthodox Church, also known as the Catholic Church (officially) is nothing but evidence that in the Orthodox Church you find the Church of Christ, surviving wave after wave of attack, abuse, persecution, and violence by the hands of the world and those who are of this world.
The Franks (aka Latins) who inherited the Church in the West (through violence) did not understand the spirit, essence, and purpose of Christianity. And this blot still remains embedded in the faulty and contradicting theology of Western Christianity today.
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@MK2boogaloo
>Because it's true!
What do you call this argument?
> They haven't been relevant to any discourse for centuries
Relevant to whom? The Truth and the Church of God will always be relevant to humanity, no matter if some or many of the world reject it. God's word and revelation transcend everything. The Orthodox Church is the only Church with continuous Apostolic Succession.
>when given the chance they won't even expand their influence beyond some countries in Eastern Europe.
Here you expose your worldly understanding of the Christian faith. A faith that is not about 'expansion of influence.' But can we Orthodox expect anything else from you?
I will nope out of this debate after this post. You should learn how to argue, because you may end up hurting what you want to defend.
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@irie @grips >Many things are funny, but not all are true. That this claim is funny is also subjective to you, and you are not the arbiter of truth. It's funny to you, that doesn't mean anything.
It's true thus it's funny, I can't accept your claim that my claim is subjective because you're not the arbiter of truth. That doesn't mean anything to you.
>The continuous existence of the Orthodox Church, also known as the Catholic Church (officially) is nothing but evidence that in the Orthodox Church you find the Church of Christ, surviving wave after wave of attack, abuse, persecution, and violence by the hands of the world and those who are of this world.
You could say the same about other churches. If we want to go back further before the established time of EO in 1054, we could say the Copts are the true Christians. Or the Miaphysites. Maybe Arians even. The thing is, the EO got persecution because they made mistakes in their action, such as supporting the Bolsheviks.
>The Franks (aka Latins) who inherited the Church in the West (through violence) did not understand the spirit, essence, and purpose of Christianity. And this blot still remains embedded in the faulty and contradicting theology of Western Christianity today.
Might makes right no? If they only inherited the church through violence, there's no way they could make such complex theology, even supporting it with numerous arguments made by the genius of the church. I'd say that if the EO really think in this way, it's a big L because it would just show just how weak they are to the world.
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@irie >What do you call this argument?
Read the following sentences bro, are you that blind to not be able to read something over the first sentence?
>Relevant to whom? The Truth and the Church of God will always be relevant to humanity, no matter if some or many of the world reject it. God's word and revelation transcend everything. The Orthodox Church is the only Church with continuous Apostolic Succession.
To men, everyone in the world. The problem is they didn't reject the EO church, not if the EO never even tried to convert other people into their churches for a millenium. If you won't proselytize to other people then it's worthless to even call yourself Christian.
>Here you expose your worldly understanding of the Christian faith. A faith that is not about 'expansion of influence.' But can we Orthodox expect anything else from you?
I expect the EO church to at least try converting other people instead of stagnating and playing power politic with the Tsar and the Sultan.
>I will nope out of this debate after this post. You should learn how to argue, because you may end up hurting what you want to defend.
In this thread and the other one, you arguments relied on you making philosophical babbles that don't even make sense, even trying some gotcha posts without looking at the arguments being posted. I mean I can't really expect anyone who took philosophy too seriously to talk in a clear manner.
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@MK2boogaloo
Okay you get one more reply out of me
>I've seen Orthodoxes here, they're just like the pic I attached.
The meme is full of strawmen that do not represent official Orthodox teaching. If the words of any (anonymous, too) nutjob online can be taken as base to attack religions then we have no basis for debate.
>Also, there's nothing you could prove about the Greco-Roman spirit either
Real life holds all the evidence. Of course you must first get to know the historical before you can recognize it in the present. Something that you not have done yet. Aren't you in Indonesia? You must actually consider your own subjective perspective when you make such claims, and how informed you can actually be. I have strong opinions about Japan, for example, but I would never attempt to interfere or mingle with internal Japanese issues. You are an outsider.
>whatever you see in your place is a replication made in the Renaissance era.
You are making some weird assumptions. The Renaissance was kick-started by the Medici bringing in scholars and artists from the fallen Constantinople. If anything, the Renaissance is the replica (or continuation, depending on perspective). When we look at the source of these scholars and artists, we do not look at a replication, but at the source and the original.
Have a good evening
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@irie >The meme is full of strawmen that do not represent official Orthodox teaching. If the words of any (anonymous, too) nutjob online can be taken as base to attack religions then we have no basis for debate.
you're asking for proof of my opinion on Orthodox people, I gave you one. I haven't even told you the time one Orthodox gave me a paper full of lies about other churches just because he wanted me to convert to his faith.
>Real life holds all the evidence. Of course you must first get to know the historical before you can recognize it in the present. Something that you not have done yet. Aren't you in Indonesia? You must actually consider your own subjective perspective when you make such claims, and how informed you can actually be. I have strong opinions about Japan, for example, but I would never attempt to interfere or mingle with internal Japanese issues. You are an outsider.
Indeed real life holds all the evidence, I haven't seen any claims that I made which doesn't exist in the real life realm. I consider my perspective on this as neutral because I'm not a man of the west nor east. As thus it's perfectly fine for me to make opinions on those topics, even if I don't have any rights you shouldn't just consider my take to be false because I'm not Eastern European like you. I'm an outsider, with logic.
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New Janny in Town
john paul grips
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