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1. Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-Mar-2023 10:28:16 JST Adrian Cochrane

   CatTrap now parses the CSS display property, & I've prepared to parse the CSS4 Grid properties. I've created a place to parse to!

   #ArgonautStack

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-Mar-2023 12:29:02 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     CSS4 Grid properties are now being parsed by CatTrap!

     I think tomorrow I'll do some postprocessing converting the CSS data into the CatTrap datastructures. Since there's plenty of constructs which needs that...

     After which it'll blogging & pulling everything together for a demo...

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Sunday, 05-Mar-2023 15:08:44 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph It's what I name Haphaestus's (TV browser) layout engine. It computes where to draw boxes onscreen, & this being the internet some of those boxes will inevitably contain cats.

   • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶ (steeph@todon.eu)'s status on Sunday, 05-Mar-2023 15:08:45 JST steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     in reply to

     @alcinnz What's CatTrap?

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 00:15:58 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph I don't recall that conversation. Yes, that is basically what I'm building! Some nuance required, since there's some CSS I'm specifically deciding not to support since I think they cause more harm than good on the modern web.

     Yes, it would run on desktop. But the UX isn't designed for that yet. If I can this working I might work on a variant where it is!

   • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶ (steeph@todon.eu)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 00:16:00 JST steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     in reply to

     @alcinnz Ooh, a new browser engine with CSS support above that of Dillo? Didn't I say to you before that it sounded like that's what you were making and you said no? Or maybe I'm misinterpreting your reply again because I wish so much that somebody would start a new, lightweight browser engine with good CSS support. Anyway, I'm looking forward to that demo. (I hope I don't need a TV to run it.)

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 00:57:00 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph Ironically, it's mostly the older features I'm avoiding! Most notably `position`! And I struggle whether how `float` interacts with inline text makes it worth implementing or too hard to implement... The newer layout modes are easier to implement for both browserdevs & webdevs!

     1/2

   • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶ (steeph@todon.eu)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 00:57:02 JST steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     in reply to

     @alcinnz Is there a project page? Or anything you'd like help with?

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 01:03:04 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph And since you're asking, there is help I'd appreciate!

     How should webforms be filled when basically all you have for input are arrow buttons? Onscreen links? "Bureaucromancy"

     What should be on the startpage beyond an addressbar? How to manage bookmarks & feeds? "Hearth"

     I'd love a document-centric (as opposed to AppCentric status quo) TV OS to run Haphaestus upon! "TVle"

     Plenty of UI design decisions to be made there I'd love input on... Any of these interest you?

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 02:08:20 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph Those position fixed overlays would be even worse when not supporting JS means there's no way to dismiss them... But they'd be moved to inline text where they no longer obscure anything!

     That said experimentation is needed to see how much I am breaking things... As I advocate for the new CSS features to be adopted!

   • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶ (steeph@todon.eu)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 02:08:22 JST steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     in reply to

     @alcinnz Well yes, float is unnecessarily weird now with the newer options. Maybe it's unnecessary too. I don't know how much it's still used. But position seems hard to avoid. What would the web be without annoying position: fixed overlays? Apart from that it's really useful. I'd imagine many layouts would break without any position properties.

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 02:14:08 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph Yes, that's definitely part of the answer. But there's several <input> types (including <select>) for which we can do better! And I'm imagining a sidebar listing what has been entered.

     Also, what new input types would be handy to offer?

   • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶ (steeph@todon.eu)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 02:14:09 JST steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     in reply to

     @alcinnz Webforms: _If_ only arrow buttons and an Enter/OK button are available, the best option seems to me to be a grid of the alphabet, numbers, some other characters and a button to switch to a different character set (special characters, emoticons, …). I work with what I guess could be described embedded machines with limited input devices. Nobody in the industry has come up with a better design that's immediately understood and usable by anybody. But it's annoying and slow and hardly acceptable for daily use. It was fine for a high score name in Nintendo games. But it takes too much time to enter more than that.

     I'm reminded of T9 texting. Couldn't the digit keys be used? You can get quite sufficient with an old phone with not much more than number keys. A TV remote has the keys in the wring place, but it still seems better than the character grid, if it's possible with ordinary TVs.

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 02:14:57 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph I have read that, yes!

   • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶ (steeph@todon.eu)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 02:14:58 JST steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     in reply to

     @alcinnz Actually it seems more sites load the overlay via JavaScript to begin with. Having no JS whatsoever breaks many sites but also makes many sites more enjoyable.

   • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶ (steeph@todon.eu)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 03:06:23 JST steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     in reply to

     @alcinnz Startpage: Most visited URLs seems ordinary and uncreative but I think many people use and like it. Whatever the start page ends up being I guess it should just be an HTML page that can be changed by the user to their choice.

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 03:29:06 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph Usually I would make this configurable, but for Haphaestus's design that would mean sacrificing browser features. Since that's where plenty of them would land!

     To give some more context: I'm planning to have tree-history. Switch to a mode where you can navigate forward, backwards, & sideways in history. At the root would be this "Hearth" startpage, including an addressbar, bookmarks, settings link, etc.

     P.S. I'm not planning to have any concept of windows or tabs.

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 03:29:15 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph If you don't mind, I'd love to see some HTML mockups! So I can test against them, & later hook up to some local-server-side logic.

     I'm thinking I'd hand off to this form engine when an <input> is selected!

   • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶ (steeph@todon.eu)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 03:29:16 JST steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     in reply to

     @alcinnz I have some ideas how some field types could look like and work. If you're interested I'll write them down. But I'd rather do it tomorrow with a keyboard. (Maybe ironically.)

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 04:23:09 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph O.K., you can use the position property. Though that means I might rewrite your CSS.

     I care more to see you avoid JS, & since you want to!

     Yes, I'm talking non-functional mockups. I'd appreciate functional ones, but I'm not asking for them.

   • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶ (steeph@todon.eu)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 04:23:10 JST steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     in reply to

     @alcinnz I can do this when I get around to. As a rule, I don't promise anything though. Especially no to avoid the position property for what I have in mind.
     You mean nonfunctional mockups in HTML and CSS just for layout and design, right? Should I avoid JavaScript? (I want to.)

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 04:26:43 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph Ouch!

   • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶ (steeph@todon.eu)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 04:26:44 JST steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     in reply to

     @alcinnz The more I think of the start page as a hearth, the more it looks like a Microsoft Bob room in my head. (That is not a serious suggestion.)

   • Adrian Cochrane (alcinnz@floss.social)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 04:28:33 JST Adrian Cochrane

     in reply to

     • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     @steeph Yes, that is what I mean!

   • steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶ (steeph@todon.eu)'s status on Monday, 06-Mar-2023 04:28:34 JST steeph 🎆 ٩(˘◡˘)۶

     in reply to

     @alcinnz And there my English reaches its limit. Do you mean you'd prefer me to avoid JS more than you care for me to avoid position?