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1. Jeremy Soller 🦀 (soller@fosstodon.org)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 14:53:08 JST Jeremy Soller 🦀

   • Aral Balkan
   • GNOME
   • Matt Campbell
   • Sovereign Tech Fund
   • Access Kit

   I am unfollowing @aral. No matter my disagreements with GNOME folks in the past, COSMIC and GNOME are going to end up with the same accessibility backend, @accesskit, developed by the amazing @matt. Thanks to funding gathered by @gnome from @sovtechfund, rapid advances are being made in Wayland-compatible accessibility features. Let's stop concern trolling each other and instead work on building a better free software world for everyone.

   • Jeremy Soller 🦀 (soller@fosstodon.org)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 14:53:43 JST Jeremy Soller 🦀

     in reply to

     • lucasmz ∞

     @lucasmz I disprove of his comments in this thread and others: https://mastodon.ar.al/@aral/112638000448055991

   • lucasmz ∞ (lucasmz@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 14:53:44 JST lucasmz ∞

     in reply to

     @soller What is the context here? What did this guy do? 🤔

     Aral Balkan repeated this.
   • Jeremy Soller 🦀 (soller@fosstodon.org)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 14:54:20 JST Jeremy Soller 🦀

     in reply to

     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @thestrangelet @lucasmz It doesn't feel genuine when someone targets others who are supposedly on your side, calling them things like "ableist" for not having finished their work. It reminds me of having been called a racist by Lunduke for supporting DEI...

     Aral Balkan repeated this.
   • TheStrangelet :bc: (thestrangelet@beige.party)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 14:54:21 JST TheStrangelet :bc:

     in reply to

     • lucasmz ∞

     @soller @lucasmz Definitely your prerogative to unfollow, but I'm sure there are quite a few things y'all agree on. I respect that he's advocating for folks that are are underrepresented in FOSS.

     Aral Balkan repeated this.
   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 14:54:58 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz Do you know how long Wayland has been default on Fedora? I just looked it up. Since Fedora 25. For eight years. I hadn’t even realised. EIGHT YEARS, Fedora has been shipping GNOME with a broken screen reader!

     And hundred-million-dollar corporations like IBM & Canonical ship operating systems today based on GNOME with a broken screen readers.

     Why do I say “ableist?” Because this can only happen in an ableist culture.

     #a11y

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 15:00:50 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz You can unfollow and publicly shame me for calling out a glaring accessibility issue in nearly every major Linux distribution on the planet. What you can’t do is both do that and argue that there isn’t an ableist culture in open source software because you’re literally perpetuating it right now by showing the next person exactly what happens when someone criticises the lack of accessibility in your community.

     #a11y #linux

   • Eric Eggert (yatil@yatil.social)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 15:15:37 JST Eric Eggert

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz This might be shocking, but deprioritizing the needs of disabled users over mainstream features is the definition of ableism. This is not a breaking change in a minor version that is quickly fixed, it’s years of excluding people. It’s the result of a systematic ableist process in an ableist world, carried out by people with (probably, hopefully) unconscious biases of exclusion.

     @aral is right to call it out.

   • pngn ✅ (penguingeek@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 15:16:53 JST pngn ✅

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @aral @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz The man said "screen reader is not working". He expressed the problems with Wayland.

     No one could prove the contrary, but they criticized the man.

     Aral seems right about this.👌

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 15:20:53 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • V'ger

     @vger Ain’t no way I’m sitting down on this, ever :)

     💕

   • V'ger (vger@fidget.place)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 15:20:54 JST V'ger

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @aral Thanks for standing up. Just earned you my follow 😉

     @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz

   • Large Heydon Collider (heydon@front-end.social)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 15:25:51 JST Large Heydon Collider

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Katanova, the Lucent Nomad
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @katanova @aral @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz This is just a pretentious way of saying "shut up" and the motivations behind that "shut up" are clear.

   • Katanova, the Lucent Nomad (katanova@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 15:25:52 JST Katanova, the Lucent Nomad

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @aral There are proven effective ways to persuade people to work together to solve and address problems. You are not using them.

     I'm going to bow out, though. No one likes to hear the kumbaya bullshit because no one wants to think about how they can change what they're doing themselves.

     Everyone wants to start with what everyone else is doing wrong. See? I'm doing it too.

     Fedi is a place to yell at other people, less so a place to collaborate.

     @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz

     Aral Balkan repeated this.
   • Large Heydon Collider (heydon@front-end.social)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 15:54:10 JST Large Heydon Collider

     in reply to

     • Katanova, the Lucent Nomad

     @katanova I have, my career is in making digital products accessible. Your tone policing and lack of self awareness aren't going to stop that.

   • Katanova, the Lucent Nomad (katanova@social.coop)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 15:54:13 JST Katanova, the Lucent Nomad

     in reply to

     • Large Heydon Collider

     @heydon I hope you find something worth being kind for.

     Aral Balkan repeated this.
   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 15:54:49 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Large Heydon Collider

     @heydon 💕

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 17:28:27 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @gvlx No sympathy for criticism of eight years of excluding disabled people from your operating system = sympathy for eight years of excluding people from your operating system.

     Petition hundred-million dollar corporation to care about making their products accessible? I beg to differ. You *regulate* them. You *fine* them if they don’t.

     (Of course, under capitalism, all that is, to varying degrees, theoretical.)

     So, no, sorry, I won’t be whispering ‘please sirs, be kind’ anytime soon.

   • Gerardo Lisboa (gvlx@masto.pt)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 17:28:28 JST Gerardo Lisboa

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan

     @aral,

     While I do understand your frustration, a negative message is... negative. There's no sympathy for that, and the real message will not carry forward.

     It would be much more interesting to petition IBM, RedHat, Canonical, Suse.com and others for a stronger support for a11y initiatives.

     And by that I mean *money for developers* (grants, scholarships, whatever).

     #a11y #OpenSource #Sustainability #Community #justBeNice

     Aral Balkan repeated this.
   • xinit ☕ (xinit@mastodon.coffee)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 17:29:07 JST xinit ☕

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @gvlx

     In all seriousness, how do you phrase "this package in your distribution isn't working at all for anyone in any circumstances" in a positive light?

     The companies involved in creating distributions aren't charities. IBM, Canonical, RedHat, etc, should be working on this already.

     @aral

     #TonePolicing #NowNowJustBeNice

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 17:30:17 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Large Heydon Collider
     • xinit ☕
     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @heydon (@xinit @gvlx was being sarcastic – you know what they say about good parody being indistinguishable from the truth and all that) ;)

   • Large Heydon Collider (heydon@front-end.social)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 17:30:18 JST Large Heydon Collider

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • xinit ☕
     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @xinit @gvlx @aral That would be literally saying different things. Try to phrase "the screen reader has been broken for 8 years" positively.

   • xinit ☕ (xinit@mastodon.coffee)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 17:30:19 JST xinit ☕

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Large Heydon Collider
     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @heydon

     "I'm really impressed by how much the screen reader has continued to offer the same utility release after release"

     "It's really notable that where other products might seek to just comply blindly like the sheep they are with accessibility laws and requirements in their commercial products. Where Fedora really excels is in going their own way, despite big government over-reach"

     At a guess.

     @gvlx @aral

   • Large Heydon Collider (heydon@front-end.social)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 17:30:20 JST Large Heydon Collider

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @gvlx @aral In what world could a (legitimate!) concern or criticism be phrased positively? They are negative by definition. You just want to silence critics.

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 17:34:58 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Large Heydon Collider
     • xinit ☕
     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @xinit @heydon @gvlx Oh no, it was me fucking up the post. I was trying to tell Heydon that you were being sarcastic :)

     Apologies for the confusion.

   • xinit ☕ (xinit@mastodon.coffee)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 17:34:59 JST xinit ☕

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Large Heydon Collider
     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @aral

     Really? Oh, my bad there,. The #JustBeNice tag did induce a sort of dysphoria, but I paid it no attention.

     @heydon @gvlx

   • The Yangsi Michael Dillon (anantagd@ieji.de)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 17:37:10 JST The Yangsi Michael Dillon

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Katanova, the Lucent Nomad
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @katanova @aral @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz I'm a blind person. I am forced to use microsoft, google and apple products because those are accessible and Linux, a FOSS flagship apparently, isn't. I'm done begging the sighties.

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 18:01:07 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Mindiell
     • Katanova, the Lucent Nomad
     • The Yangsi Michael Dillon
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @Mindiell Orca. Is. Broken. On. Wayland.

     Broken. Kaput. Doesn’t work.

     Wayland has been the default on Fedora for eight years.

     Orca has been broken by default on Fedora for eight years.

     Do you see the problem?

     @anantagd @katanova @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz

   • Mindiell (mindiell@mamot.fr)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 18:01:08 JST Mindiell

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Katanova, the Lucent Nomad
     • The Yangsi Michael Dillon
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @anantagd @katanova @aral @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz What about Orca screen reader ?

   • F4GRX Sébastien (f4grx@chaos.social)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:31:20 JST F4GRX Sébastien

     in reply to

     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz the patchwelcomism is real and quite annoying.

   • katzenberger (katzenberger@mastodon.de)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:33:43 JST katzenberger

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Matt Campbell
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @soller

     As I see it, @aral has been calling out ableist behaviors, not arbitrarily labeling people, and most certainly not @matt (prove me wrong).

     The worst part of ableism in software development is to treat accessibility as yet another "requirement" in the list that consistently gets ranked down, kind of a bonus of grace. Like with pushing out Wayland fully knowing that this will exclude people.

     It seems to be hard to imagine for some what this means for people depending on features like e.g. a screen reader that is fully functional, and works during installation already. And sometimes this ignorance shows in very disappointing statements and replies.

     @thestrangelet @lucasmz

   • Daniel Quinn (danielquinn@mastodon.social)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:34:13 JST Daniel Quinn

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz I can sympathise with that, but the sticking point for @aral I think is that this isn't just unfinished work lacking a few features, but rather unfinished work that's remained unfinished for so long *while still being used as the default* for years. This decision, that an unfinished product lacking fundamental #a11y functionality was "good enough to ship" is an ableist one.

   • Johanna Janiszewski (johannamakesgames@mastodon.gamedev.place)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:34:57 JST Johanna Janiszewski

     in reply to

     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz Ableist is neither a slur nor a description of your intention. As with other types of discrimination, it can happen without intending it. I dare to say its probably mostly ignorance and indifference. The outcome is the same though, disabled people can't participate and thats a bad thing for them and society.

   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:35:31 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • GNOME
     • Matthew Booth
     • Matt Campbell
     • Sovereign Tech Fund
     • Access Kit

     @mattb Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

     @soller @accesskit @matt @gnome @sovtechfund

   • Matthew Booth (mattb@hachyderm.io)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:35:32 JST Matthew Booth

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • GNOME
     • Matt Campbell
     • Sovereign Tech Fund
     • Access Kit

     @soller @aral @accesskit @matt @gnome @sovtechfund I'm going to join you.

   • The Yangsi Michael Dillon (anantagd@ieji.de)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:37:51 JST The Yangsi Michael Dillon

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Eric Eggert
     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @yatil @gvlx @aral People had to chain themselves to the Capitol for ADA to happen

   • Eric Eggert (yatil@yatil.social)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:38:01 JST Eric Eggert

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @gvlx @aral #JustBeNice, really? Because we know that people in power always happily change their ways when you are “just nice”. Because nobody asked nicely when the regression happened almost a decade ago? Because people whose human rights are violated are supposed to “just ask nicely”.

     In what world does that work? It’s on the OS projects to lobby for the resources they need to make a functioning product.

     Aral Balkan repeated this.
   • The Yangsi Michael Dillon (anantagd@ieji.de)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:38:33 JST The Yangsi Michael Dillon

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @gvlx @aral I already know there is no sympathy for disabled people. Our mere existence is negative. And so is our messaging, appartently.

     Aral Balkan repeated this.
   • Aral Balkan (aral@mastodon.ar.al)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:40:11 JST Aral Balkan

     in reply to

     • Mindiell
     • Katanova, the Lucent Nomad
     • The Yangsi Michael Dillon
     • lucasmz ∞
     • dick
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @dick Yes, dick, that is definitely the actual fix here. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with the rest of the class.

     @thestrangelet @soller @lucasmz @anantagd @Mindiell @katanova

   • dick (dick@annihilation.social)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:40:12 JST dick

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Mindiell
     • Katanova, the Lucent Nomad
     • The Yangsi Michael Dillon
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:
     @aral @Mindiell @anantagd @katanova @soller @thestrangelet @lucasmz dont use fedora genius
   • Svenja (svenja@fedisabled.social)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 19:59:36 JST Svenja

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Gerardo Lisboa
     • The Yangsi Michael Dillon

     @anantagd @gvlx @aral yeah, it often feels like that, no matter how we try to express our Needs.

   • Adrian Roselli (aardrian@toot.cafe)'s status on Thursday, 20-Jun-2024 21:34:34 JST Adrian Roselli

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Gerardo Lisboa

     @gvlx
     While I hate to pile on, it’s important to understand that the messge is from frustration with the ongoing and genuine harm that these kinds of barriers introduce.

     It is valid to be angry and suggesting otherwise is dismissive of that community experience as a whole. That dismissiveness is part of the problem. Your lack of sympathy as well.

     Historically, accessibility affordances only come after using this kind of advocacy. Which sucks.

     @aral

   • katzenberger (katzenberger@mastodon.de)'s status on Friday, 21-Jun-2024 15:11:26 JST katzenberger

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • Michael A. Murphy :system76:

     @mmstick

     I really admire your text cutting skills, your deliberate effort to make this look like a blanket statement.

     You are very well aware whom exactly @aral criticized in this post, and for what specific reaction.

   • Michael A. Murphy :system76: (mmstick@fosstodon.org)'s status on Friday, 21-Jun-2024 15:11:27 JST Michael A. Murphy :system76:

     in reply to

     • katzenberger

     @katzenberger

     > From the actually-what-you’re-referring-to-as-ableism-is-GNU/ableism department

     Quoted the blanket statement.

     Not only that, but the post complains that a Fedora maintainer said that patches are welcome, and yet the first instinct in response to that is to want to block them? Not a productive attitude.

     If you care about the problem, then instead of calling people abliest, go help the people who are working on this problem. GNOME is backing AccessKit, which will be in COSMIC.

   • katzenberger (katzenberger@mastodon.de)'s status on Friday, 21-Jun-2024 15:11:28 JST katzenberger

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @soller

     @aral is pointing out the simple fact that companies with a quite decent overall budget are pushing out essential software that excludes people who had been better supported before. As everybody trying out accessibility features under Wayland vs. x11 can easily experience.

     Nowhere is he posting blanket statements like your "people are not supporting accessibility". These are your misrepresentations of what he is saying.

     Quote him correctly.

     @thestrangelet @lucasmz

   • Jeremy Soller 🦀 (soller@fosstodon.org)'s status on Friday, 21-Jun-2024 15:11:29 JST Jeremy Soller 🦀

     in reply to

     • lucasmz ∞
     • TheStrangelet :bc:

     @thestrangelet @lucasmz It isn't the opposite. Aral is twisting words to claim people are not supporting accessibility. Everyone involved wants it to be better, so why throw around words like ableist?

   • TheStrangelet :bc: (thestrangelet@beige.party)'s status on Friday, 21-Jun-2024 15:11:30 JST TheStrangelet :bc:

     in reply to

     • lucasmz ∞

     @soller @lucasmz It's the exact opposite of what Lunduke did. By supporting DEI, you are supporting the underrepresented, just like Aral is with a11y.

   • ragectl (ragectl@hachyderm.io)'s status on Friday, 21-Jun-2024 15:11:59 JST ragectl

     in reply to

     • Aral Balkan
     • katzenberger
     • Michael A. Murphy :system76:

     @katzenberger @mmstick @aral every linux distribution? is that blanket enough?