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1. 寮 (ryo@social.076.moe)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Feb-2023 00:29:59 JST 寮
   I have to admit, all those people who once used Linux and converted to the BSD's are right, the more I use FreeBSD and OpenBSD, the more I like them, and the more I feel like Linux is just a big mess.
   I still love Linux as much as I love OpenBSD and FreeBSD, but the latter 2 really feel like complete operating systems that are well thought out, easy to maintain, and very comfortable to use.
   
   But it's all fine, because both of these are really meant to be full operating systems independent from everybody else, and Linux is really meant to be just a kernel with separate components developed in isolation from each other that put together form an OS.
   The point of Linux is to give you the freedom to just replace each component you don't like for one you do like, whereas the BSD's are more meant to be used as intended by the developers, but still provide you the freedom to replace each component if you really want to.
   
   And I will continue to use all 3 of them, though on servers I chose to go full BSD-only, because the only viable Linux distro's in my opinion are Artix and Gentoo, which are both excellent for desktops, but I can't recommend neither on servers at all.
   Due to the nature of Linux, it makes perfect sense for distro's being rolling release, not fixed release, but rolling release on its turn only makes sense on desktops, not servers.
   • Udon, たかし and :tiny_star: :lts_1: ジュース :lts_2: :tiny_star: small penis association like this.
   • Udon (udon@social.076.moe)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Feb-2023 00:59:32 JST Udon

     in reply to
     I think rolling's not even good for desktop since there is usually variety of packages and it's easy something will break with an update. (unless they are fine spending time to unbreak stuff)
   • 寮 (ryo@social.076.moe)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Feb-2023 01:33:17 JST 寮

     in reply to

     • Udon
     This used to be a big problem in the past compared to now, but the problem still exists because too many devs sadly can't seem to make anything without relying on external dependencies (or at the very least make static builds instead of dynamic).
     
     But I find Devuan and all the other Debian-based distro's to be a massive disservice when it comes to packages.
     Even now in 2023 it still comes with lots of software versions released in 2018~2020 (hell, Debian even ships the most broken version of i2pd I've ever experienced!), which might be a guarantee for stability on servers, but on desktops I think this is more a hassle than anything to the point you need to resort to workarounds like .deb packages or AppImages (which are glorified statically compiled binaries) or PPA repo's (which tend to not work or stop working completely sometimes) to basically achieve something a rolling release distro would do natively, so why not just use a rolling release distro right away then?
   • Udon (udon@social.076.moe)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Feb-2023 02:09:39 JST Udon

     in reply to
     I think i2pd itself is (was?) unstable. In the past I had it segfaulted every after a while on other distro (not Debian-based) too. But on Debian I have switched to their upstream binary since I experienced those bugs.
     
     > so why not just use a rolling release distro right away then?
     I don't need all the things to be the latest. I would like to but I don't want spend up to a night unbreaking things in exchange for that (which I had experienced several times). I may only need the latest packages for a selected few. It is rather a personal taste however.
   • Udon (udon@social.076.moe)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Feb-2023 02:11:36 JST Udon

     in reply to

     • Udon
     That is, personally I feel like having a (relatively) stable base with only selected packages in edge is best for desktop use.
   • 寮 (ryo@social.076.moe)'s status on Wednesday, 22-Feb-2023 09:30:05 JST 寮

     in reply to

     • Udon
     Yea, it depends on the software in question.
     Personally anything that can be used as an attack vector I prefer to have the latest version of, unless there are known exploits in the latest version.
     Or just switch to something that's already secure by default, like replacing sudo for doas for example.
     Though it's not always possible, for example replacing OpenSSL for LibreSSL will break lots of Linux soft that rely on it.
     
     > I think i2pd itself is (was?) unstable. In the past I had it segfaulted every after a while on other distro (not Debian-based) too. But on Debian I have switched to their upstream binary since I experienced those bugs.
     
     Thanks for proving my point.
     Yes, I know that i2pd isn't often breaking on specific distro's, like it was working fine on Devuan, Artix, and kind of OK-ish on OpenBSD on version 2.44, but on FreeBSD it would crash all the time.
     2.45 would crash if you have UPnP enabled, which I know because I even had the very guy who fixed that bug in my IRC server at the time, and 2.45.1 had an exploit that allowed the entire network to get DDoS'd.
     Wrongthink and Udon like this.
   • Wrongthink (wrongthink@cdrom.tokyo)'s status on Thursday, 23-Feb-2023 11:12:32 JST Wrongthink

     in reply to

     @ryo I’ve been eyeing Alpine Linux lately and it seems like Linux spun up with a little spirit of BSD.

   • 寮 (ryo@social.076.moe)'s status on Thursday, 23-Feb-2023 23:18:08 JST 寮

     in reply to

     • Wrongthink
     Alpine is a different beast altogether, it was meant more for firewalls, SIP phones, and Docker containers, it just so happens that you can run it as a desktop OS.
     postmarketOS (a distro specifically for Pinephone, Librem 5, and old Android phones) is actually based off Alpine, and Alpine's repo is pretty empty, which is the main thing what makes me refrain from using Alpine.
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Friday, 24-Feb-2023 06:19:44 JST Terminal Autism

     in reply to
     Yeah, the reality is that Linux is a gigantic mess, especially with corporations trying to all pull it in different directions, and all the big distributions being bad. Also, having individual components made by frequently incompetent people is bad enough, but having a Frankenstein's OS of separate components being made by multiple separate incompetent groups, that really magnifies the issue.
     
     Anyway, I think Gentoo is good in concept, but shit in practice (especially with software being as bad as it is, and taking forever to compile). Rolling-release plus source-based is just the worst possible combination. Compiling your system once or twice a year is fine. Doing it all the time, though, huge pain in the ass. I have never used Crux, but I hear it's fixed-release and source-based (also old and apparently does things in a pretty Slackware way). That makes more sense to me. Also, seems like it has a ports collection, like BSD, which is another thing I like about it.
     
     If I wanted to go full source... I'd probably go with BSD, actually. You generally shouldn't mix ports and packages (not sure if it's still the case on OpenBSD, especially when I checked and their ports collection does build and install packages that are like any other and I never had issues doing that with Emacs and a couple other programs, but the FreeBSD people do say this), but going full source-based on the BSDs is as viable as using packages. On the Linux side, it's only Crux and some even more niche distributions.
     
     Maybe Nix and Guix, I think they support installing from source as well, but I think they are too complex to be worth it, especially when apparently they do not solve the updooter issue at all (so, I don't know if there is a solution... maybe appimages, but that's only on Linux, and FreeBSD through Linux compatibility, which is not as efficient as running natively). Guix's other features are interesting, but it's all done with Guile, and I heard that causes a bit of a noticeable performance hit (maybe they should have just used CL). Also, as nice as being able to configure everything with Scheme is, it kills portability, you can never move that config to another distribution or OS.
     
     I would like an illegal open source version of Windows XP, with backdoors and vulnerabilities patched. Where are the Russians when we need them?
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Friday, 24-Feb-2023 06:22:22 JST Terminal Autism

     in reply to

     • Wrongthink
     Maybe try Crux, or MAYBE even Slackware. Those are supposed to be very... classic. I have never used them, though.
   • Wrongthink (wrongthink@cdrom.tokyo)'s status on Friday, 24-Feb-2023 07:03:57 JST Wrongthink

     in reply to

     • Terminal Autism

     @terminalautism Thanks. My only brushing with Crux was with MineOS Crux back when I was still a wee little ‘nix newbie.

   • 寮 (ryo@social.076.moe)'s status on Friday, 24-Feb-2023 12:06:38 JST 寮

     in reply to

     • Terminal Autism
     Another BSD-like Linux distro is Void Linux, which used to be made by someone who left NetBSD over a disagreement, and then he allowed the woke outrage mob into his project, who then cancelled him, and Void is now if you'd contribute to their ports collection and say something in their IRC they don't like (like how they provoked me into explaining why I call myself "asshole"), you get cancelled.
   • 寮 (ryo@social.076.moe)'s status on Friday, 24-Feb-2023 12:12:12 JST 寮

     in reply to

     • Terminal Autism
     As for why I like Gentoo, unlike Arch/Artix it lets you configure compile flags while installing (just like FreeBSD when compiling from ports collection for the first time), which is tiresome, but gives you lots of extra control.
     But compiling from soyce only makes sense in an era where developers could actually write code properly (it was the case when Gentoo started), nowadays though, good luck spending an entire week compiling Ungoolagged Chromium, just to be outdated by the time the compilation is done...
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Friday, 24-Feb-2023 12:22:00 JST Terminal Autism

     in reply to
     Yeah, now that you mention it, I remember you posting about that. I'm kinda curious about Slackware and Crux, though, because those are fixed-release and may be more appropriate for people that hate updates.
     
     Though realistically, I probably will switch to FreeBSD sooner than later. The biggest issue is the browser issue. I guess I could run LibreWolf using the compatibility layer, but I don't know about that! It's already heavier than everything else I run combined, really don't know if I want to make that performance even worse by not even running it natively.
     
     Also, I have to move my files to ZFS, so, I'll probably get a NAS before I do that. Though of course, if I do that, OpenBSD also becomes more of an option. Though I will miss appimages, because they have saved my ass a few times before, particularly for emulation. But I guess I can have a separate system just for that.
   • Udon (udon@social.076.moe)'s status on Friday, 24-Feb-2023 14:45:26 JST Udon

     in reply to

     • Terminal Autism
     https://www.palemoon.org/download.shtml
     
     There is Palemoon for FreeBSD btw.
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Feb-2023 13:42:33 JST Terminal Autism

     in reply to
     Yeah, I know the appeal, I have used Gentoo before, but now I only customize the programs that I actually want to customize. You can do that on Arch by using "asp checkout packagename" to get the PKGBUILD, and then you can change it and build (though I have had problems with that before, like in the case of Emacs, with the package's authentication, it wouldn't build even without customizing). But it's a rolling release distribution, and Arch isn't really built for that, so I don't know. But with the ports collection in any BSD (or Crux, I guess), you can get a lot of the benefits of using Gentoo as well, and at least on OpenBSD, their Makefiles are very clean and easy to modify. You can also automatically patch things with it.
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Feb-2023 13:47:05 JST Terminal Autism

     in reply to
     Getting a little sleepy, so I didn't notice I wrote unnecessary stuff but also skipped the browser stuff. Yeah, browsers are an absolute nightmare to build, almost like that's intentional (it totally is, by the way, they do not want most people doing that). And just wait, it will get even worse with Rust becoming more common. I have build a relatively small Rust tool before (before being aware of any potential issues with the language), and it took an ungodly amount of time. Though somehow Chromium manages to take even longer than Firefox, even though from what I heard, Rust takes longer to build than C++ (maybe that has changed, but probably not).
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Feb-2023 13:59:33 JST Terminal Autism

     • konataismywife
     Oh, that's good to know. I haven't used FreeBSD in a while, so I had no idea. The Firefox underneath it is still horrendous, but it's the browser with acceptable defaults. I wouldn't know how to configure a browser to be as good as that, which is why I still use it.
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Saturday, 25-Feb-2023 14:05:52 JST Terminal Autism

     in reply to

     • Udon
     Had no idea. I thought that it would never be on any repos again because of the licensing bullshit. Still, I'd rather use LibreWolf, even though the underlying Firefox is much worse. Palemoon has been going in a bad direction anyway, and LibreWolf is the only browser with acceptable default configuration.
     
     Palemoon doesn't spy on you (just like some other browsers), but it still lets everyone else get a huge amount of your data. Check this on both Palemoon and LibreWolf, and compare the results:
     https://www.deviceinfo.me/
     
     Every browser other than LibreWolf that isn't actively malicious still lets the entire web collect a massive amount of data about your device.
   • Udon (udon@social.076.moe)'s status on Sunday, 26-Feb-2023 01:11:40 JST Udon

     in reply to

     • Terminal Autism
     I think Palemoon has stopped going into the wrong direction (I hope) since Tobin has left (?). Dramas have reduced, repos have re-opened and ports seemed to be adopted. (Clownflare was once dropped after that but it was restored recently)
     
     > Palemoon doesn't spy on you (just like some other browsers), but it still lets everyone else get a huge amount of your data. Check this on both Palemoon and LibreWolf, and compare the results:
     With or without JS? I don't use JS with Palemoon anyway, so I don't really see the difference (other than it looks like Palemoon or old Firefox).
     
     I agree Librewolf is more ideal for daily usage though. JavaScript and webapps just work and still quite a lot use Firefox.
   • 寮 (ryo@social.076.moe)'s status on Sunday, 26-Feb-2023 10:24:57 JST 寮

     in reply to

     • Udon
     Oh, I had no idea regarding the Pale Meme portion of your post.
     But let's wait and see, them going right back to Cuckflare is already the first red flag though.
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Sunday, 26-Feb-2023 12:42:15 JST Terminal Autism

     in reply to

     • Udon
     Well, for using without JS, even Palemoon may be a bit excessive. Though I guess some of the add-ons are nice even then, if you can still use them.
     https://www.deviceinfo.me/
     Test them. The difference is pretty big.
     
     Anyway, has all this been undone? https://digdeeper.club/articles/browsers.xhtml#palemoon
     
     I think I'd rather use Basilisk, or something else.
   • Udon (udon@social.076.moe)'s status on Sunday, 26-Feb-2023 15:49:34 JST Udon

     in reply to

     • Terminal Autism
     Yeah, the default user agent, but those could be changed pretty easily. What else big difference have I missed?
     
     > Anyway, has all this been undone? https://digdeeper.club/articles/browsers.xhtml#palemoon
     
     For most of them, no. But the useragent thing is false. It is "network.http.useragent.global_override" for global (site specific is still the same as before). Though, MC didn't clearly mention it instead of just putting it in their release notes. Basilisk's addon page is also more useful than PM's which insanely check your UA (https://addons.basilisk-browser.org/extensions/).
     
     But in my experience it is a bit harder to turn off the auto connections in Basilisk (than PM), but it is possible.
     
     For browsers in general, I think they are just in a mess. Most of the time they (both the dev and sometimes users) don't care about telemetries that much (https://gitlab.com/librewolf-community/browser/linux/-/issues/271). And for Firefox I think they have much stronger motivations to include anti-features.
   • 寮 (ryo@social.076.moe)'s status on Sunday, 26-Feb-2023 18:03:53 JST 寮

     in reply to

     • Udon
     All browsers suck, it would be nice if all website were accessible from terminal browsers, but most aren't because soydevs.
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Monday, 27-Feb-2023 05:02:56 JST Terminal Autism

     in reply to
     Not even terminal browsers, those are legitimately a bad meme that needs to die (then again, that's most software "design"). Just supporting a normal browser would be fine. Install and open Dillo. Look at how fast it is and how much RAM it uses. It supports images, it supports HTML (though only very early HTML, so no divs, so a lot of websites won't have the expected layout, but it's fine, that's why tables are clunkier but preferable because of their portability) even fully supports CSS. It uses the FLTK toolkit (maybe that's a reason why it's efficient, I don't know how much bad performance is the fault GTK 2 ~ 4 and Qt 5 and 6, but maybe some of it is).
     
     Graphics have been around for a long time, there is no excuse for everything to be this bad. And developers that give up on them are just hiding their incompetence. They can't make something good, so they're not even gonna try, they'll avoid design like the plague. Fact is, graphical programs have been a common thing for 40 years, they have no reasonable justification to not be blazing fast.
     
     Why are they this bad? I don't know, I'm not a programmer (and almost all programmers are incompetent, it's just a field that attracts moronic midwits, so they don't know either), but things were faster 20 years ago on Windows XP than they are now on Unix systems, and the antidesign of all these ncurses programs is not a solution to anything, these OSs are still in practice worse than Windows 2000 in everything but customizability and security, and (maybe) not glowing in the dark quite as much. It's better than other current OSs, but that's not much of an accomplishment anymore, it's like winning the special olympics.
     
     Of course, it's not the fault of the actual OSs, but these systems don't come with default programs that are light and fast, while older proprietary OSs did. And almost everything that you can install now is pure garbage, and there's no backwards compatibility, so good luck running an older one. And the ones that I did run were horrendous.
     
     These OS were always plagued by people with no interest in UI design. Makes sense, they were made by people that used fucking ed, after all, and thought that was fine. Thank Bill Joy for vi, and whoever the fuck actually invented Emacs for Emacs, or we would be still be using ed right now, AND we would possibly have no key bindings in the command line, like in Plan 9. https://social.076.moe/url/169256
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Monday, 27-Feb-2023 05:04:59 JST Terminal Autism

     in reply to

     • Udon
     I hate web browsers so much. Really, I should just replace web browsers with RSS and text files at this point.
   • 寮 (ryo@social.076.moe)'s status on Monday, 27-Feb-2023 09:32:18 JST 寮

     in reply to

     • Terminal Autism
     Dillo can't connect to Tor or I2P through proxychains (it doesn't have its own proxy setting even), so that one is already out of the question for my usecase.
     
     Plus darknets tend to have far more lighter hidden services/eepsites simply because both Tor and I2P users generally disable JS to increase anonymity, so the only things that require JS on there are soytes by people who just run a Tor and/or I2P mirror and never even bother using it themselves.
     
     And browsing the darknets is going to be slower as you're passing through many computers around the world first, so you really must care about performance, and again the only ones that don't are those who just run a mirror and never even bother checking it.
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Monday, 27-Feb-2023 11:44:30 JST Terminal Autism

     in reply to
     Yeah, but for connecting to the web, without JS, it's an example of a good browser. It does what a web browser should while also being light. And that is, displaying a web page, and images and CSS are part of that.
     
     Also, connection speeds and browser performance are a separate issue. Though frankly, I don't think Tor is that slow compared to the web. The entire web is so slow that the difference isn't that noticeable, I'm used to some slowness.
     
     Anyway, have you ever checked out Gemini? Lagrange is another example of a light graphical browser. When I used it for the first time, I felt it immediately, the responsiveness. It's really easy to feel that, because I'm so used to everything not being that way. Whenever I click on a menu and it opens at a normal speed, it's really noticeable, because of how unusual that is nowadays.
   • 寮 (ryo@social.076.moe)'s status on Monday, 27-Feb-2023 13:58:06 JST 寮

     in reply to

     • Terminal Autism
     Guess you're using a dial up connection?
     Clearnet is a billion times faster than Tor on my end.
     
     And yes, I know about Gemini, I even mentioned it in a comment on another post.
     It's lean and sane, the main problem is that you're still entirely dependent on all of the clearnet middlemen (well, at least Gemini browsers won't complain about self signed certificates, so it's still better I guess).
   • Terminal Autism (terminalautism@social.076.moe)'s status on Monday, 27-Feb-2023 15:50:38 JST Terminal Autism

     in reply to
     My internet is fine, download speeds are great. Websites basically never open instantly anymore, though. Also, I think Tor may be way slower on your end because of location.
     
     It is slower than the web, but it's not that slow by today's horrible standards because opening a really bloated website like Odysee on LibreWolf takes so long that browsing a website like this on Tor ends up being better.
     寮 likes this.
   • 寮 (ryo@social.076.moe)'s status on Monday, 27-Feb-2023 16:08:57 JST 寮

     in reply to

     • Terminal Autism
     Yea, Tor is a whole lot faster if you're in Europe because Europe has all the exit and guard nodes.
     I2P is faster over here because the vast majority of the I2P routers are located in Siberia, which is just up north from here.