Notices by wizzwizz4 (wizzwizz4@fosstodon.org), page 2

@colby Fair enough about `<param>`. I absolutely agree that web browser developers shouldn't have this attitude – but since they do, isn't it good to act like they do?

CSS Grid is from 2017. Non-buggy ES6 is from 2016. HTML5 <main> (and friends) is from 2013. Aside from ARIA and IndieWeb (which are best-practices more than anything), the other good, sensible parts of the web all seem to be 2010-or-earlier.

The modern web is bad. The Chrome devs are going to break it, so we shouldn't target it.

@colby Okay, that makes sense.

Chrome is the main target of the "modern web", with Safari or Firefox a close second (depending whether the developer in question is a macOS user). If you're lucky, they'll also consider Chrome for Android and iOS Safari.

When Chrome devs break their browser, that's our loss. (Remember: autoupdates.) Chrome and Firefox are the only real implementations of GoogVM; basically every Chromium derivative follows Google's decisions to a T, and Firefox isn't far behind.

@colby The "modern web", as an API target, is not a long-term thing.

We've got things like WebUSB, which will only last as long as USB. We've got an entire set of APIs (Ajax, Canvas, Audio, DOM) that constitute security vulnerabilities (e.g. fingerprinting) in combination, but not alone – you *can't* implement them all, as defined by WHATWG.

Google keeps moving the goalposts (e.g. https://chromestatus.com/feature/6283184588193792, https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1065085, https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/zIg2KC7PyH0).

Those bad expectations are realistic.

@enkiv2 @colby The whole point is that the web is not supposed to be that.

The "modern web" is the antithesis of the web.

@colby Of what you were saying, I thought. More broadly, the point of the web.

(I don't think anything I'm saying here is useful to say to you; you already know it.)

Many web developers think of the web as a portable application platform, on which they should build a tower of abstractions. They rely on pixel-perfect layout implementation details, and consider "works on Firefox, Chrome and Safari" to be a success condition. This is not the point.

@suetanvil @codesections @FiverX2 With Tcl/Tk applets, you can have Tcl on the front-end and the back-end! Full-stack Tcl is supported by all modern web browsers.